What is Shou' Shu'
83A Rarity Among Martial Arts
Shou' Shu' is a rare gem among martial arts. It is quite different than any of the styles out there that I am aware of. Of course it shares some things in common but there are aspects of Shou' Shu' not found elsewhere.
There are a number of reasons why it is different than other systems. we could go into depth into those reasons but that's more space and time than I want to put into this page. so I'll gloss over them a bit here.
A Jewel in the Muck
Yesterday when I was training with a friend he said "Sometimes the most valuable of jewels are hidden deep in the muck". I really didn't pay much attention to what he was saying nor do I know what he was reffering to at the time. But it did bring some thoughts to mind today.Shou' shu' was once hidden deep in the filthiest of muck and remained there for many years. Right around 1901 or so Chinese families in US cities requested that Martial Arts masters from mainland China come over to the US to teach martial arts. The reason for this was that they had no protection. The Chinese were in very low standing in the US at the time and they were not afforded police protection. Chinese businesses were often robbed and nothing was done about it. So they took it into their own hands to protect themselves. The martial arts masters taught the young Chinese men how to fight and then these young men would roam the streets acting as vigilantes.
At first this was an honest protection system. But soon it degraded into criminal activity. Protection schemes were born and these gangs soon became what would later be known as the Tong (often called the Triads). These Tong members trained hard in their martial arts because they were on the street fighting every day. They needed their training to be at it's best.
Later on but while this Tong activity was still occurring China went through a great deal of turmoil. Communism gained power and many cultural and educational things were eradicated. Scholars were targeted along with martial artists. These groups were either strictly watched over and highly regulated. Or they were killed. Many of them escaped the country and went to freer lands such as the US.
So for the most part the martial arts were removed from China. To this day we know of no true martial arts still existing in china despite the popular belief that is the hub of martial arts. the only places left where true fighting arts were being taught were within the triads. Only hardened criminals now possesed the art.
Da' Shifu Al Moore
Da' Shifu Al Moore
Around 1939 a young man by the name of Al Moore was running around on the streets of Emeryville California with his best friend Jimmy Chin. Jimmy happened to be the grandson of a Grand Master of Shou' Shu' by the name of Lu' Chin.
Lu' Chin was probably what was known as a Dai Lo. A Dai Lo was a martial arts master who was used to organize a Tong. Often times this Dai Lo was the only connection the gang had with the true gang boss. In this way gangs could be formed to do the dirty work but if something went wrong there was very little connection to the business men who the gang worked for.
From the accounts of this time that I heard from the late Da' Shifu Al Moore the group that trained under Lu Chin were all men in their mid to late 20's. He and Jimmy were the exceptions. They were boys of only 13.
this young man Al Moore eventually ended up fighting in WWII and after that he travelled to China to continue his training in Martial Arts. He became a grandmaster himself.
Later in life he opened a martial arts school. Originally called Moore's Karate because at the time the words kung fu were not well known. Everyone reffered to martial arts as karate even though they were not.
These schools were early on comprised of men in their 20's. They were street fighters learning how to improve their street fighting skills. The atmosphere still held some of it's trappings of the Tongs. Tough attitude and fight at the drop of the hat spirits. Training in those schools was not always pleasant but it was the best training there was so we put up with it.
But this was actually a good thing for the art. The art was tested on the street on a regular basis. Every day there was a fight and what was good was proven to be good. It wasn't exactly the high level of humility and moral code that we know today but it was keeping the art effective.
So What Makes Shou' Shu' Different?
It would take a book to really describe Shou' Shu' thoroughly. Although one never fully masters the art it takes abouyt 30 years to complete the system at the pace Da' shifu thought best. So describing every aspect of it would take at least as long. However there are a few important things which separate it and make it unique among the many thousands of martial arts systems.
Flowing, Focussed Chi
all systems have Chi of some sort ( I think). There is internal Chi and external Chi and one or both of these can be found in any system of martial arts. However in Shou' Shu' the chi is both flowing and focussed. I've seen many systems of kung fu that have flowing chi, both internal and external. However I've never seen a form of kung fu that appeared to have chi that was both flowing and focussed.
What i mean by focussed is that every bit of the energy that the body can produce is brought to one point. This is done mainly by using two principles. the first is the proper use of momentum. In a shou' shu' strike every possible part of the body is creating energy in the direction of the strike or block. This may be in a linear fashion, circular, serpentine, or whatever. but in some way each body part is helping to contribute momentum to the strike. Not so much as a finger is moving in a direction as to detract from the overall momentum.
Bone Alignment
The second principle most commonly used (although not always) is the principle of bone alignment. Basically what happens is at the moment of impact all of the bones in the body line up, just for that instant, in such a way that all of the energy is transferred out of the body and into the opponent. There is no give. Like a cue ball striking another ball, all of the energy is transferred to the other ball.
The two principles are the combination of yin and yang, in this case the soft and the hard. The practitioner flows effortlessly between these two principles. As a practitioner gets to the higher skill levels the hard becomes so fleeting that it can hardly be detected. The hard is only momentary to transfer the energy.
In hard style martial arts this hard reinforcement can be seen. It is emphasized and obvious. In Shou' shu' it exists but can get to the point that it cannot be seen.
For me using physics equations explains why this is so important. I like to express it as such:
E=1/2(MV^2) this is the common expression of energy.
But what is far more important than energy in MA is what is called Impulse.
I=(1/2(MV^2))/T^4
which can be more simply stated as
I=E/t^4
this is an equation for transfer of energy. Basicaly what it says is that Impulse power is the available energy times the inverse of the amount of time that energy is applied to the 4th power. Or in other words. The shorter the amount of time the strike is applied the more energy is transferred. To a huge degree.
Shun Shifu Phil Weaver
The Beasts
Shou'Shu' is comprised of 7different systems. Each of these systems is based upon the movements of a particular animal. These animals are: Bear, Tiger, Mongoose, White Crane, Preying Mantis, Cobra,Imperial Dragon.
Each of these animal systems is a specific way of moving and each is a different way of creating power. Combined they are Shou' Shu'.
What I have noticed in my study of these beast systems in comparison to other animal systems is that to me they appear to very much actually mimic the body motions of each individual animal. In my opinion other animal systems will use one aspect of the animal such as the way a Mantis uses his barbed hooks. but not the body motion. Shou' Shu' concentrates on the body motion of these animals. since shou' shu' is very focussed on power generation this body motion is far more important.
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CommentsLoading...
Curious martial artist is sure a funny name. But then I bet that's an alias for Shun shifu Vargas.
Anyway curious, which degrees do you refer to.
SSW
Word is that you left the Moore's system at 2nd degree.. what is your rank at this point in your "shou shu" career?
I was asking about your degrees and such simply because if you left Moores, How did you promote further in Shou Shu? I've heard that there are others that know shou shu as well but I've only heard bits and pieces... thats why I ask... I don't mean any disrespect.
Hello Shun Shifu Vargas,
Sorry if I did take offense. I'm just so used to being attacked online. No big deal though.
"Word is that you left the Moore's system at 2nd degree.."
Well there are a lot of words about me LOL
Actually I was a third at the time of leaving Moore's. My actual test was in front of what I thought was a large board. It was the Friday of Spring camp 2002.
Although I certainly respect so many that were in the board that tested me the test that was far more important to me occured Fall of 01 in Da' shifu's back yard. He gave me a lesson (probably the last he ever taught) and told me he'd come down to the studio in the next week or so to "finish things off". It was a great lesson and the compliments I got rom him meant a lot.
So as far as rank goes, that was the last time I tested. I am still wearing a third degree.
However far more important to me than rank was knowledge and learning.
This is the biggie. I've never posted it online in an effort to be as respectful as possible and not stir things up. Maybe it's not as important to anyone else but me. But it is important to me.
Not long before Da' shifu's passing we had many talks together. He knew he wasn't going to be around much longer and he was guiding me.
sorry, this tears me up a bit but.
He made me promise him a few things. He was quite stern about it in his Da' shifu way. One of those things was this. He said:
"Phil don't ever let anyone change what I have taught you"
He stopped me, looked me in the eye and pointed his finger in my face. He made me repeat it back to him.
There was more to the discussion than that but that was the most important thing.
So mid 2002 I had recieved a number of lessons in, shall we say because I have no other way of stating it, Southern Shou Shu. and yes, things were changing.
I tried in my mind to justify. I thought "I can keep this separate". But the reality was that I could not. One day I was practicing. Can't remember what it was but what happened was I felt a motion from the Monkey stick form I had recently learned creep into my Shou Shu. At that point I knew without a doubt that I couldn't go on and keep what Shou' shu' I had pure. I was not honoring my Da' Shifu.
Well things were getting pretty tough on me in the organization anyway. It was a pretty emotional time for us. Not only had we lost Da' shifu who was like a father to me but me favorite uncle had died a week or so before and my wife's best friend had been murdered. It was tough times.
Then my wife gets in a pretty bad fight with the leader of your organization. It was nasty. Screaming and yelling right in each others face. Plenty of witnesses in total shock. Then he gets a pinched nerve in his neck and goes on a rampage.
Next business meeting he's ready to attack me. and he does. Pretty nasty stuff which I'll leave out.
so not only did I know I had to leave but it was made very clear that I was not welcome anyway.
I'm rambling I guess but here's what it came down to.
I felt it more important to keep what I had. And had promised to do so. Than to get any more rank.
And that's about it.
Fortunately for me, yes there are lots and lots of people outside of the Moore's system who know Shou' Shu'. I have trained very regularly and am constantly learning. I spent about 5 or six years mostly training in Crane and feel pretty good aboout it but I'll let others judge. I've been training in Mantis for awhile now. I can't say I feel real good about that yet LOL But I'm having fun with it.
There's been more traing than just the beasts of course. I can say I feel pretty darn good about the new knowledge I've recieved. And I haven't concerned myself much with what's on my belt.
So anyway, I hope I've answered your question. Probably to much I guess.
SSW
Wow, that was alot to read. I appreciate you taking the time to write me back. One can see the heart in your words. I can respect that. With respect.....
Shun Shifu Vargas
Thanks for finally posting such a great article, it's long overdue. Good Q&A as well.
Yep, I agree
Thank Shun Shifu Vargas for dragging it out of me :-)
Dude, what did the Moore's do to you that you spend your life promoting that supposed history.
Hello Former,
I've been contacted by you numerous times. Every time I've responded the email bounced. Evidently you like to use fake email addresses.
Both your emails and numerous posts all over the web started towards the end of 2002. Strangely, not long after Da' shifu passed away. The reasons for that timing I don't know.
But for these last years I have not replied to you publicly so far as I remember. I just didn't want to get into it. But you've spread so much disinformation around the web that at this point I am certain you have affected many.
So I guess what I'm saying is that it's time that someone responds to each and every one of your statements. As noone else seems to be jumping at the bit to do that I guess it's me.
However I don't have time to do it all at once. Unfortunately I don't have the spare time that you seem to have. I'll answer everything eventually but in order to answer everything fully I intend to answer each point individually and take my time doing it.
Also I feel that it is better that I answer your questions at www.shoushu.com . this will allow my to fill that site with some of the information it needs anyway.
I have approved all of your comments here. I have not denied any of them and within reason I will do the same there.
You can expect your questions answered over there in the coming days as I have time to do it.
You know who I am. I would hope also that you would reveal who you are.
See you over there.
I guess the finished means he doesn't wish to participate anymore.
Too bad I haven't even started yet. But I will.
I'm interested in your writings Shun Shifu... I've written a request to be allowed access to your website.
Respectfully,
Shun Shifu Vargas- Elk Grove CA
Wow! I am seeing alot of venom here.
I can only speak to my personal experience...Here goes. I started my martial arts training at Moore's Karate in 1982 under Shifu Steve Hendricks...Advanced to green belt...Joined the military and was out of the area for the next 20 plus years. I never found another Shou Shu instructor so I studied everything I could find. In the military me or my instructor moved every couple of years. So...Tang Soo Do...Shorin Ryu..Ishin Ryu...Shotokan, Hun Gar, Hapkido, American Freestyle and Finaly Tae Kwon Do where I eventualy recieved and advanced to a 2nd Dan Black Belt. Each and every one had something to offer...I guess what i do now is a hodgepog of all of them. Never cared about the history of any of them...for me the key was finding a good qualified teacher. Thats it...could they teach me and was what they were teaching effective? Blew out my knees about 10 years ago and quit training but now I am back training again...I chose Moore's Karate because I found a good teacher and I KNOW it's effective...it works. Thats just me. I don't know if that helps anyone reading this but there ya go...Moore's Shou Shu teachings absolutely do work regardless of where it came from.
Respectfully
Frank Kasper rockhaven1@comcast.net
A easy why to find the answer to the age of any Martial Arts style, is to find the ages of the top ranking practitioners of the style, and what year they started their traning! certificates have dates. OH, unless the dog ate it!
Peace
Ito's White Tiger Inc (Bok Fu) -- web siteWeb Page Listed (About Kenpo)
I've seen the white tiger practitioners. That is not shou shu and has very little relationship to shou shu. Yeah they know how to do rising knee but shou's shu' is not a technique art. It is a principle art taught through techniques
Ito White Tiger Inc. (Bok Fu)
Check out the family tree at the bottom of the (About Kenpo) page.
and you should talk with Mr Ito, he trained with the Moore's under
the Tracy's and Richard Lee. You can contact him on his web site.
I've talked to most of those guys from those schools back then. Perhaps I'll stop by Mr. Ito's school sometime soon. I'm in that area once in awhile. Will i find you around there?
You are wasting your time Shun Shifu Weaver. I have sent a similar individual very detailed responses to some of the very broad generalizations made. My replies were very objective and detailed, however this individual either did not reply or did not want to reply. I think they are just putting out their version of the "Truth" but really do not care to engage in any meaningful dialouge. I have earned rank in both Shou Shu and Kenpo and felt I could answer questions or engage in discusion but I guess not.
Shun Shifu Vargus, former maybe the same person who was posting the blogs about Da Shifu Sr. If I remember correctly the person had been slighted or was insulted by Da Shifu Al Moore II. I do not remember if it was him directly or a family member. In any event that is more than likely the motivation behind the postings.
I too am very interested in the writings and details of the past. The closest I ever got to Da Shifu were my lessons with Shun Shifu Clark. I have emailed you site as well.
Shifu Salindong
Hello all. I'm just curous about this art... http://www.shenghunkungfu.com/bear.html
I see they teach the same animals. Is there any connection with them and Shou Shu. Also, what about Kenpo and Shou Shu. Heard Da Shifu Sr. befriended Ed Parker and took Kenpo's tech and added the Shou Shu motions to them and thats how Shou Shu is taught today vs how he learned Shou Shu, one motion at a time.
Thanks.
Hi Madmax,
Yes there seems to be a connection of some kind. I have trained with them a little and there are some interesting corrollaries. However there are some big differences also. It is unclear exactly what the connection is.
Yes, Sijo Da' Shifu did take Ed Parkers techniques as a basis to teach Shou' shu'. That is correct. That is where a great deal of the misinformation comes from such as the above posts.
If you think of it in the opposite way if you teach Shou' Shu' very simplistically and take all of the major Shou' Shu' principles out you basically have kempo again. I suspect that is what happened to Former Shou Shu guy who always posts that Shou' Shu' is kempo. In a sense, if he learned Shou' Shu' from someone who simplified things then he is right. It is kempo. He just doesn't understand that not all arts taught under the name Shou' Shu' are necessarily the same art. Which is to bad but unfortunately relatively common in the martial arts world.
SSW
Ed Parkers American Kenpo concepts and principles taught in
(yellow belt) first three techniques Delayed sword, Alternating Maces, Sword of Destruction
Anchor, Angle of cancellation, Angle of disturbance, anticipate action, balance compensation, base technique, borrowed reach, buckle, cancelling of natural weapons, checks (cocking, detaining positional, rebounding,) contact penetration range, control, family related techniques, fighting gap, follow-ups, force field, forcasting, frictional pull, height zone, marriage of gravity (droping of one's weight) open the fighting gap, reaction time (Hick's law) environmental awareness, renewed attack. sink Stabilize your base, also to surge your body mass or kick, etc. striking range, transitional moves, witdth zone, to pivot or rotate, accidental strikes, alternating, angle of delivery, angle of deflection, angle opportunity, back-up mass body momentum, borrowed force, bracing angle, colliding forces, committed action, counter rotation, defensive checks (cocking,chamber, positional checks, preparatory, pressing) dept of action, grafting,kiai, law of conservation of angular momentum, line of travel, lower case block, margin for error, path of action, point of contact, power, shortening the ark sound barrier, thrust, torque, wipping, whiplash effect, apex, back-up technique, body language, center line, center of mass, circular motion, combination attacks, compounding techniques, drilling, execution time, instinctive response, intercept, orbit, paralysis perception, Reverse motion, Timing, sliding, roundhouse
For more information (American Kenpo Legacy Association)
Study American Kenpo Karate as originally taught by Ed Parker! Experience Authentic Kenpo
For more information contact Kevin lamkin here in Kentucky
Yes that is true. I did email back and forth with Al Tracy and i did speak with him on the phone. I also spoke with others from that time. some relayed similiar stories. Some had different stories.
However there are stories and bits of evidence that I am not currently willing to share that really throw a wrench in the stories. Sorry, I know it's not nice to throw something out there like that and not follow up but.
And really in the end what it comes down to is I can't find one shred of Shou' shu' motion in kempo. Hardly even the bear which you would think would be standard fare. The other beasts motions are compoletely non-existent in any kempo I've seen. I've done my research. Watched videos of the masters, gone to tournaments, and I've taught countless kempo practitioners that have come to my school. I've yet to see anything.
Although I've seen the faintest glimpses of Shou' Shu' motions in some forms of kung fu they typically are pretty watered down. they look like they might have had a relationship generations ago but are hardly recognizable now.
I have found one guy who had a purely cobra art. He was as shocked to find me as I him. His art was unrelated to any other arts as far as he knew and was taught to him privately. That was a trip.
So it really comes down to this.
1) Da' shifu's story is true. He studied shou' shu' at a young age and used kempo as a way of teaching it later on.
2)Da' shifu studied kempo and later made up his own art.
and maybe there is a 3
But here's the deal from my stand point. From my experience in studying and teaching Shou' shu' for the last twenty some years and realizing it's complexities and wonders #2 is just to incredible of a story. Da' shifu was amazingly smart but noone could have come up with Shou' shu' in one lifetime. It's completely unfathomable.
And if I'm wrong, who freakin cares, I'm sticking with Shou' shu' 'cause I've never seen anything like it or even anything come close to it.
Like they say " I don't care if he got it out of a gumball machine. I want it"
It is common behaviour in the martial arts community to nag at each other. Everybody pretends to own the better system, the more effective skills. What it really boils down to is: What do you expect?
Do you want to practise a healthy sport? Do you endulge in beautiful body movements? Do you want to impress other people with athletic techniques? Do you want to learn street fighting? Do you rather go for the philosophical aspect or Eastern myth?
There are many motives - and each one is to be respected.
Effectiveness of a martial arts system depends on the individual skills of each person not on the system itself. The more you practise the better you become - but as you get older you will again loose the dynamic and reaction a young guy may display. There are also physical pre-requisites. It is a myth that a tiny lady can overcome a 6 foot weight lifter ... except if she ...
Well, what I want to say is this: enjoy the martial arts you're with and stay humble! If you look into several systems you will find many things alike. As simple as it is: the wheel cannot be invented twice. Of course Shou Shu is not unique. It is a mixture of styles and got the animal ways from kung fu.
Personally I have practised Ju Jutsu for 35 years and earned a couple of black belt degrees. I would not like to move around like an ape or any other animal because my knees would make their veto. But younger people are free to try it. There are many roads to the final destination we will never reach ...
Shou Shu doesn't ruin knees or any other body part and age has nothing to do with speed or power.
Hi Ju Jutsu master,
I agree with your beginning statements.
Disagreeing on who's art is better is common behaviour.
The best martial art is dependent upon what you are looking for. However most of your "do you wants.." are not describing martial arts at all. Unfortunately all of those things are typically called martial arts.
But from there on out I'd have to totally disagree with everything else 100%
I have heard something similiar to that but I didn't have a name of the guy they went to. Can you point to anything of Jimmy Woo's (or his students) that looks like Shou' Shu'.
I've trained many of Richard Lee's students. I have several in my school now. None of them had any shou' shu' principle when they started. Those that remember also all say that when Al Moore entered to the school he brought all the black belts in the back room and taught them (Including Richard Lee) However when you hear it from Richard Lee the story is different.
Point me to one instance of cobra or mongoose motion and I'll be interested.
Phil
Shun Shifu, is this what you mean by Southern Shou Shu, the guys in black with yellow stripes down their pants?
Um, well definetely not what we would call Northern Shou' Shu'.
Shou' shu' is very hard to put on film. Done right it's motions are very small and if you don't have eyes for it it might look very unimpressive. But it will sure feel impressive to the opponent.
Those guys are trying to make it look showy for the camera. So they might not be displaying their true skills.Or maybe they are.
I see my old training partner krieger there at the end.
lol, understood
ShunShifu Weaver, you know as well as anyone that video is strictly for entertainment, those are students from a few schools that are showing off their athletics and speed in Shou Shu. There is no southern shou shu.. Jung Moon has differences from his father that he liked doing in Shou Shu and he had them adjusted when he took over the system. Thats it.
I really have been enjoying the debate with Norm Waters and to read that he paid money to dig up more lies is beyond me. I found your information on the research you did quite interesting as well and I am really happy to hear you were able to defend Da'Shifu Sr and show more of a positive light on all the crap Waters has been throwing out there. But I took the comment from your student disrespectful.
With respect,
Shun Shifu Vargas
Norm Waters? So you have a name for this guy. Do tell.
I'm not sure who you are refferring to as my student. As far as I know I don't have any students posting here. unless they are hiding under a screen name and not telling me.
I agree. There is only Shou' Shu'.
Yeah, I used to frequent Martial Arts Planet, he got on there as well as some other websites and started bashing Shou Shu and its roots. He would blast any and every thread of a forum with his copying and pasting of "his story" of the history! He goes under different names on every website he encounters but my debates with him has always been under this user name Norm Waters. He truly has an agenda against Shou Shu but he won't come out and tell us his name, I asked him one time because he started giving some break down of me but shyed away from my questions and at one point thought I found him and when I threw the name out there of him.. he as well as some norms on that website had a fit about me mentioning a name and such. So I just see it as "I'm damned if I do and i'm damned if I don't".
I'll be training for some Shou Shu demos for the September camp, I'll be sure to let you know when I download them so I can share.
Much respect,
Shun Shifu Vargas - Elk Grove Moore's Karate
You know the really funny thing about this guy is he appeared IMMEDIATLY after Da' Shifu passed. I could go through my records and find the exact first date he emailed me but off the top of my head I remember it being weeks or maybe a month or so at the most. I just remember still being in a pretty crazy state at the time.
I look forward to your demos. That'll be cool.
and by the way, yes I know that putting Shou' Shu' on film and making it look good for someone who doesn't know what they are looking at is extremely challenging. I personally will never let demos deviate from true Shou' Shu' but I realize that is merely a personal decision.
with respect
Shun Shifu Weaver
Sheng Chi Training Center
Shun Shifu Vargas
Now that you have mentioned a name I seem to remember a Lee Waters on MAP stirring the pot, could this be the same guy? Also can't wait to see your demos as well. It is also rather convenient individuals such as this have come out of the wordworks after Da Shifu Sr. passing. As a side note that an individual can not be a "master" at a young age I offer this: Doc Fai Wong, who most all will claim as legit, earned is master rank at an early age, somewhere around 24,I believe. It's on the web and easy to find, so it can and has been done by traditional MA. Shun Shifu Weaver I know you are not ready to share some of the old stories of Da Shifu and his involvement in Kenpo & Bok Fu but I am sure everyone would love to hear about it !!! I think the first thing I realized when studying Shou Shu is that the depth of knowledge and its underlying principles of body mechanics are NOT found in Kenpo, at least the Kenpo I am familiar with. Also there are several Shifus who have done both Kenpo and come to Shou Shu who can relay the exact same thing. A hodge podge of comments and thoughts.
Salute, Shifu Salindong
Hey Shifu Salindong,
I did track the guy down using a little sleuthing at one time. Postings and emails leave behind traces such as IP addresses. I'll have to dig up my records but if I remember right the guy I traced it to was named Waters. He was pretty old and lived on the East coast I think. So I don't know what the connection is. Of course this could have all been spoofed.
When Da' Shifu tested someone for any given rank beyond say green or so the decision to test was really based upon a really important question "Is this person at a point that they will continue to season and grow in their knowledge". Of course this is an individual assessment and somewhat based on a persons mindset. are they humble enough to continue to grow. Are they introspective. In many systems (and in a way also in ours) there are a minimum number of years. But we are in a situation where the instructors can take their time and watch over the development. I imagine that if the situation were different. Say an intense full time training scenario that I could see a scenario where the masters would release students into the wild who have gained all the knowledge necessary but have not seasoned into it. In this scenario I see it as the best possible way of creating grand masters. and of course these Grand Masters would season into their knowledge over the years.
I think it was my second to last lesson with Da shifu. He was teaching me the mongoose. He stopped and said "ah so that's what they meant". I questioned him and he said he just fully understood something his teacher had told him 60 some years ago. I'd say he was still growing.
It is amazing how many people came out of the woodwork immediatly after Da' shifu's passing. People who had been out for 30 years and all of a sudden they are active. Where were they all that time and why come back only after his passing. Leaves me a little suspicious.
You hit it on the head with the principles. I have poured over every bit of kenpo I can find. I've taught numerous kenpo practitioners including many black belts. They are always absolutely befuddled when I teach them principle. They can't figure out why their master didn't teach it to them. I've yet to find anything more than the simplest of body mechanics present in kenpo.
Although they do have some interesting phrases describing it as seen above.
Have a great day and happy fourth everyone.
Oh and feel free to comment over on http://www.shoushu.com I moderate the comments for obvious reasons but I'll certainly let you guys through.
SSW
Check out the 3rd black techniques (from the list on the side). I like how he holds his breath and looks down a lot. Sad and yet so many keeping saying Shou Shu is just Kenpo.
Shun Shifu Weaver, If you did some research and you found the "Norm Waters" or "Lee Waters", please share the information, like he said... it's public information and its out there for the taking.... well give it up? I'd love to know who this person is.
Mr. La Bounty,
Part of what you said is very consistent with what I was told by Da' Shifu. That his son and others went on with the kenpo training while he moved away from it.
He said that he taught beginning students kenpo through their first four belts and then switched them to shou' Shu' after that. Which is, of course, consistent with what you saw.
So yes, that does help.
thank You
Former,
I have heard numerous hearsay statements from individuals. Many of them have things to gain by making those statements. Whether they are true or they simply believe them to be true is hard to say.
You may continue to dig these up and send them over to prove your point. (I am still very suspicious of why it is so important to you). But nowhere have I ever seen Shou' Shu' principles of any quantity in another art. If Shou' Shu' was derived from the Tracy Brothers system then why is there no resemblance in motion. Certainly there is no dispute that techniques came from there. Yes I am quite aware that Bok fu uses for the most part the same material in their blue and green as we do in our orange and purple.
But techniques are only tools by which principle is taught. They are not really important. As a matter of fact I taught a lesson to my upper ranks just a few weeks ago and taught rising knee out of four separate beasts. Each one was pure. The technique is merely a tool. Da' Shifu chose the tools of kenpo to teach because they were the best around.
Shou' Shu' can be taught without the use of techniques. I do this a lot. However using them makes the teaching process much easier and yes without a doubt this idea was taken from kenpo and yes probably mostly from Tracy's kenpo.
However, Shou' Shu' is not kenpo. And it is not kenpo merely with a Chinese influence. I have yet to find the principles of Shou' shu' in mainstream Chinese arts either.
I have spent time with masters of many systems of Chinese arts. I was a guest instructor in their school. The principles I taught were completely foreign to them.
Shou' Shu' is unique among arts.
Wherever it came from may always be under scrutiny. But when it comes down to it it really is not that important at all.
Passing on this great body of knowledge to the best of our abilities is what is important.
Knowledge can persist forever, facts, histories, and opinions are transitory.
Yes I've read that guys comments before too. You keep sending the same stuff. Isn't he the same guy that said the word Shifu was an incorrect useage of Mandarin. I believe he is. Spent a lot of time discrediting us because we used shifu rather than sifu.
Thee is no connection with Shou' Shu' and the Shaolin temples. I've seen this claimed but it never came from Da' Shifu I have personally heard him say otherwise and I've spent enough time investigating shaolin to know there is no connection.
Funny thing is there is a parallel in Shaolin history.
These sort of discussions are all to common.
Former, why do you care? If you had such a bad exp with Shou Shu, you've got two choices, move on and live your life, or waste your life on Shou Shu.
We aren't going anywhere. I don't care if Da Shifu Sr. learned Shou Shu from a little green man on the back of a cereal box.
I don't care if he studied Kenpo and or some other arts and added a twist to it. I don't care if he stole Shou Shu from a monkey at the zoo.
I don't care.
Do you understand yet?
I'm still going with the won it out of a gumball machine theory. I like that one.
All the secrets of the universe hidden in a gumball. Makes me smile.
Ha. Inspiring myself to train harder in Shou' Shu'.
Yeah, that one is pretty darn good. ;)
Body guards, TV shows, movies, wow. Lots and lots of authority on the subject.
Let me ask you. What do you think of the Shaolin monks traveling around putting on shows. You know that wheel of life show thing. Authority directly from the Chinese government. Direct descendents of the originals. The absolute authority on Shaolin right?
Just asking
Going to answer my question?
I have been fortunate enough to have tested in front of Sijo Da Shifu at least once that I can recall. I have attempted to go back to the "southern style" as it is sometimes referred to, and quickly found that I liked what i was originally taught a lot better. Call it personal preference. Regardless of anyone's opinions on the foundation of Shou Shu the fact remains it is a rare gem. With continuous research on fighting arts, I have yet to find a system that incorporates the principles of Shou Shu. The power and fighting skill of its practitioners is awesome.
Former, here's a challenge for you. Find a qualified Shou Shu teacher and get at least your Mongoose. Then you tell me where you can find the copied movements.
There is a long standing bit of wisdom that really catches my attention. I can't remember how it was said but the gist of it is.
Knowledge can persist forever where facts can be modified to suit the present.
That has been my course of study also. I've spent some time talking to those with opinions but my mainstay of research has been trying to find anything out there with any principles that resemble Shou' Shu'. I've found a few glimmers of small bits. But nothing substantial.
Sure that makes sense. Cite enough sources and then your right.
Except the question is what's wrong
Qu'est-ce que c'est
Ok Former, you win. Al Moore Sr. is the biggest con man in marital arts history.
Now what?
We're still going to study Shou Shu.
You are right "it is what it is " a rare gem. A gem that will continue to be taught the way Sijo Da Shifu intended. Its practitioners will continue to get better as martial artists and individuals. Train hard
OK, I guess we're conceding.
Now let's get back to training
Now that I have time to write, I will address your comments
1) Lineage: Unfortunately to many western martial artists lineage seems to be some justification or ancient Chinese secret that gives their self-esteem or ego a boost. They believe that somehow it must be right or the best because of how old it is, or it contains some mystery to the meaning of life. Nowhere does it say in these lineages how good someone is. Many of the newer martial or fighting arts systems are great arts. For example Jeet Kun do about 40 years old, Krav Maga about 50 years old, Systema about 10 years old, and many MMA styles. On the other hand there are arts that have been around for hundreds of years that have their origins accredited to a person but there is no documented proof. I.e.: Taiji Quan, and Xingyiquan. Still yet there are also many arts believed to be extinct that are still practiced by a select few.
2) Martial arts styles are like finger prints: If you compare 2 together you will find similarities and differences. For example Baguazhang and Liu he ba fa, or, for the sake of argument, Kenpo and Shou Shu. To the inexperienced they may look alike but to the experienced they are worlds apart.
3) Martial Lessons: “Humility” Former, I believe that this lesson is something that someone taught you in Shou Shu that you are still struggling with. This obsession of yours with Sijo Da Shifu’s lineage seams to try and reciprocate a sense of humiliation. First of all, your argument is with Sijo Da Shifu. NEWS Flash a dead man. Which by itself is well………..sad. Considering your timing in coming out of the closet I also believe you feared and respected the man.
4) Being vindictive is not a way to persuade people to your cause. Also, some of the Kenpo people you have used have credibility issues in their world. Anyone would be foolish to take you seriously.
As for me I believe in Sijo Da Shifu and his lineage and the way he intended Shou Shu to be taught. For the sake of argument, If I’m wrong, So What! I will continue to study Shou Shu, frankly it’s the best art I’ve seen.
Humility lesson#2 “ If I let it bother me then I wouldn’t be Bruce Lee” Bruce Lee filming on the set of the Green Hornet. Read a book
If you feel you need to argue with more dead Kenpoists say Hi to Elvis for me.
Former, I just don't get it. So what, many have said long ago that the top Shou Shu guys studied Kenpo. Ok, so what. You have prof Da Shifu Sr. didn't study in China? Lets see it. Otherwise, you've got nothing.
And another thing Former, for all we know, you're a top ranking Kenpoist trying to make Shou Shu look bad. I'd be careful if I were you.
Former,
I think the problem is that you are not thinking. It really comes down to one thing. If Shou' Shu' PRINCIPLE came from kenpo or any other art then one would be able to find that same principle in that art. It is not there.
I will tell you that I do have one student (lower rank) that trained under the masters you speak of and currently trains here every night. He's not the first. I have trained many. This guy always says things like.
"Yeah it's really similar to Bok Fu except you guys are better teachers."
Now this student is one of the stubbornest, bullheaded students ever. But that's ok we really like him even though he's a PITA. The thing is that everyone around him sees that he is missing the principles because he's stuck in the past. Slowly he gets it but very slowly.
I have taught many students who came from Bok Fu, a few from Shorynji kempo (They make the same claims, that they taught Sijo Dashifu. Yes I've spoken to them on the phone.) and a number from Tracy's Kenpo. NONE of them had any understanding of even the basics of Shou' Shu' principle. Nothing. Brown belts, black belts, whatever. In the first 5 minutes I taught them principle that they had never ever heard. Stuff that is simple and basic to us. Every single one of them got this completely baffled look on their face and said things like "Wow, I wonder why my teacher never showed me that" then they would come up with all kinds of theories. He didn't really like them. He was saving the secrets for later. It is really sad to watch. They have complete loyalty to their old teacher so their brains have a hard time figuring it out. I've seen this over and over.
You keep coming up with arguments. Wrong useage of the the words shou shu. Yeah right. Just like the big bashing of us for saying shifu rather than sifu. I've run into many MANDARINS and when they see the symbol guess what they say. Beast Art.
Your right. Mandarin is not a people. But it's much more than a language. Mandarin means ruling class. So the Mandarin language is the language of the ruling class, which of course is the official language because it's the language of the ruling class. Mandarin does not necessarily refer to an ethnicity. However because what we refer to as Mandarin came about from the Manchu invasion one could in a fashion say that Mandarin's are of Manchurian descent. this is not wholy true but for the most part it is accurate. In these invasions culture were assimilated into one another. Especially since to create a new culture the invading culture would take wives from those invaded. customs and knowledge of the invaded culture were then preserved through assimilation.
So you are right but it doesn't prove your point in any way.
There were many many Mandarin Warlords. And the thing is they were all very different from one another. They were not a homogenous people. So I apologize when we say on the Shou' Shu' sites it came from the Mandarin Warlords. They were all different and probably all had different arts. So it probably came from one or a few of them and definetely was not a knowledge that was widespread among them. I know that is confusing. One would think of them as a united group when that is just not true.
I had really hoped that this discussion would not have devolved into name calling and such. There is so much of that on the martial arts forums. It's such a diservice to martial arts as a whole. How can we ever expect martial arts to grow and benefit people if we all come across as a bunch of quarreling hot heads? this is a terrible thing from those who preach humility. It's like the gentlemans knife that is really a stabbing instrument. Or the MMA announcer saying what gentlemen the fighters are just after we see clips of them brandishing their egos (not all).
You, my friend, are not "saving people from Shou Shu" you are creating a debacle. You are doing a disservice to martial arts as a whole. You look for anywhere you can post about Shou' Shu' on the internet and you post YOUR truth. You constantly edit wikipedia because most people do not realize that anyone can do that and spread something as truth.
You obviously feel as if you are doing the world a service or righting a wrong in some way.
And in the process you anger men who normally are very polite and humble men. But you poke at their teacher. He's dead but you still hold some grudge against him.
So as far as i can figure one or more is true
1. As you have stated, you are informing people of the lies (saving them from shou' shu') You've also stated Shou' Shu' is a great art. So what gives. You are saving them from something great. That doesn't sound like a worthwhile endeavor.
If you want a cause maybe you could pick one more worthwhile. There are plenty. Children without clean drinking water in Africa. The starving on our own streets. Socialism.
It would be wonderful if you harnesssed all this energy you have for something good.
2. You feel you need to dole out retribution of some sort. If this is the case I would recommend church. Find a good one and listen.
3. You feel you have something to gain personally. If this is the case then I would advise that cutting of the heads of others to make oneself feel taller is not a good strategy in business or in personal relationships. If this is the case then I would recommend church and some sort of business training. Looking inside and concentrating on your own stuff would be advisable.
I hope in some way I have helped. Probably not. This will probably be taken as sarcastic. It is not intended that way.
I would only hope that you would decide not to continue to spread vitriole. It does no one any good.
Former, if you can't prove what someone said is false, yet you continue to advertise all over the net that the history of Shou Shu are lies, you might take a moment to collect your own thoughts or someone might get mad enough and you end up with a libel lawsuit on your hands.
Good luck.
What, that the masters of Shou Shu once studied Kenpo and that they didn't look like masters who studied in China to the Kenpo instructors. Ok, so they have an opinion but where are the facts that prove Shou Shu came from Kenpo and that Da Shifu Sr. didn't study in China. Cause I keep finding these claims on different forums and the same links that you keep talking about but no facts to prove anything. All in all, I guess you want to believe Shou Shu is just Kenpo. Maybe if you had stuck around longer, you would have realized otherwise.
ps, you can't find Shou Shu in China.
In my previous comments I was a little steamed and came across very rash and angry. For this I apollogise, it was not my intention. I had previously looked at several forums and was not pleased. My intention was merely to provoke thought in a conversation that seemed to be going around in circles with no conclusions just accusations. Since posting my previous comments, it appears here any way, that there may be an actual discussion and progress. Well, hopefully. If this is the case, maybe other forums can learn from us here.
Good Luck to you Former
Former, I can't answer you question.
But what is youre underlying conclusion. That he got his black in Kenpo then added all the Shou Shu animal motions that popped into his head and taught it to us as Shou Shu.
Cause if thats what youre saying, I'm even more impressed with him.
Ah no, not even close.
what belt did you get to Former? im guessing you didnt even make it to green.
Mad Max is right. Not even close.
I also agree with Mad Max that if you were successful in proving Da' Shifu "created" Shou' Shu' that you would elevate him in our minds beyond the level of reverence we already have for him. so good luck at that.
Dog catcher, you show great humility by apologizing when you were the one insulted. Nice!
I've been around enough to have been educated a little on the kenpo animal attitudes. It's actually used in a few other arts too. This is anthropomorphic. The Shou' Shu' use of animals is not.
In Shou' Shu' we do not anthropomorphize human characteristics onto animals. We try to learn the reactive states of those animals. Although this is only a small part of the training.
There are no student stage beasts. Each beast is an independent art. They are completely different from one another. Each is a separate course of study and upon mastering that beast technically one would be considered a master of an art. Although we don't really use that terminology much.
Our tiger is in no way linear. It is not necessarily aggressive although can have aggressive tendencies.
All of our animals could be aggressive or evasive. In general characteristics are not limited to individual beasts. they do have characteristics though. For example any of the animals could use either passive or aggressive evasion but the mantis and cobra would tend to use more aggressive evasion while the crane can easily go either way. Each has it's own spectrum of reactive states. Some of those spectrum's are wide, some are tiny. As in nature.
Each beast can do the full realm of martial principles.However they each do these things in their own way. A crane can evade and a tiger can evade. But they do it differently.
The crane may tend to be more evasive and the tiger may tend to be more aggressive but this is not absolute. The most aggressive of our beasts is the Mantis. This is because his brain is the most simplistic. He cannot have emotion. He can only carry one reactive state (not thought or emotion but reactive state).
Reactive states are similar to emotions but there is a subtle difference. And as everything in Shou' Shu' the magic is in the subleties. And yes subleties are difficult to understand. they take years of study before they appear to a person and sometimes they never do. That is the reason we are having this conversation at all.
An emotion is triggered by a thought. That thought may be buried deep within our subconscious but it is still a thought. It may not be evident to us but it is still a thought. Thoughts trigger emotions.
A reactive state is triggered by a cause. There is no thought between the cause and the reactive state.
This is a very subtle difference but has profound meaning.
But again, this is only a small part of the beast.
Our animals do not "represent" anything. They are "ways of moving". Meaning they each follow their own set of physical rules.
I tend to think in physics. I have the ability to visualize 3d modeling and have some training in statics and dynamics. So because of this it is easiest for me to understand the beast motions in terms of physics
In getting the basics of how a beast moves using statics and dynamics helps me learn.
So I think in terms of centroids to think about energy flow. Centroids are like center of gravity but are used to calculate energy of moving non uniform shapes
In Shu' Shu' the chi always passes through the centroid. It is the connecting point. The point in common that all chi passes through.
The bears centroid is just below the navel. So basically the energy could be calculated as if all of the mass was at the navel The tigers is higher in the chest but moves from navel to chest.
Mongoose is really weird since his centroid can be outside the body in some instances (dragon too)
Cranes centroid is vertical a pole
Mantis centroid is a horizontal pole
Cobra is seems to be always slightly forward of the vertical centerline
Dragon it can be wherever he damn well pleases :-)
Of course it's not just a matter of the amount of energy but how the energy is transfered to the opponent
The equation for impulse power is helpful in understanding this
I=(1/2MV^2)/(t^4)
which is extremely helpful in understanding energy transfer in both crane and cobra. Basically it says the less time the strike is making contact the more I or impulse. Impulse is what causes damage. this allows for example cobra strikes to target internal targets.
If you've been hit with strikes from different beasts you can attest that they feel very differently from one another. Tiger feels hot at the surface and spreads. It's more of a blunt force. Cobra hurts internally. Like a bullet that bounces around inside the body. Crane feels like a blade cutting through. Mantis shoots through you like a bullet with an exit wound.
In Shou' Shu' the animal motions are very distinct from one another. I have not seen that to be true in other systems.
As far as the newspaper article. I've had enough newspaper articles written about me to know that reporters rarely get things correct. I've seen so many blatant misprints that were completely different than what was said.
But here is what was probably meant.
Shou' Shu' did not use technique as a teaching tool prior to it's involvement with kenpo. It did however have beast forms and beast forms are made up of technique. The principles were taught in individual motions and later (much later) were shown in a form.
It's more about the teaching methodology.
I hope this is helpful
Smile!
Ah now I see.
You mean permagrin right?
come on Former. how far did you get in shou shu. orange? high orange?
Sam-I-Am claims to be a shifu. But has never said under who. As I've explained before that would make a big difference as to how close what he knows is to kenpo
well if he's a shifu, he didn't make tiger and he should have no problem reciting the cobra kata. come on Former. lets hear it.
Apparently a lot, since you won't answer the question. Hell, I'm beginning to think you never were a Shou Shu student.
Former
The question really has nothing to do with rank but your ability to discern what would be Kenpo mechanics and principles and Shou Shu mechanics/principles. That is my opinion as to why people are asking. If you just look at the cards ya it might look a whole lot like Kenpo until you realize the underlying principles and mechanics utilized have completely different body mechanics to achieve power. Think about this, if you were to look at our Brown card you would see Form 6 but it has nothing to do with Kenpo form 6, which is all about weapon disarm techniques. Also as a side if Former is super "old school" he may not know the cobra as it was not in the system in the 70s.
Were all adults here former quit bashing shou shu. I can tell that u haven't matured as a ma because u keep underestamiting this art. And it will be ur down fall in a fight . Best lesson I have ever gotten "we can give u tools but it's up to u to make things efective "
Bà fú, former doesn't know what Shou Shu is and doesn't care what it has to offer. If someone on the street showed him some Shou Shu motions, he wouldn't even know it was Shou Shu vs some other art. If he got to work out with a Da Shifu for one single day, he wouldn't give a flying **** about Shou Shu's history. Sad.
Mmadmax9....You said it!
It doesn't mater to me where it came from....Never cared about all that stuff. Shou Shu works....Really Works! It's hard to see internal circles and those tiny body shifts on film or even watching, but you get an advanced Shifu demonstrating them to you/on you and you wont forget it. I want that for myself.Gonna keep training til I get it. By then I'll want something else that Shou Shu offers. :-)
Former seems to want us all to admit that Shou Shu didn't come from China or whatever...for me..well...Who cares?
I guess that's a shallow selfish view but that's okay with me. 20 plus years in various other styles and a 2nd Dan in Tae Kwon Do...Yet here I am back in Shou Shu where I started Sooo long ago. Shou Shu-Gumball machine...I'm okay with that. I never got to meet Al Sr. Don't know what he would think or say about all this but I bet the attitude of "Who cares where it came from it works" would have him grinning ear to ear.
Frank Kasper
rockhaven1@comcast.net
I never met Da'Shifu Sr, But i've been trained by Jung Moon and I'm trained 2x a month by Da'Shifu Siegfried and ShiHan Amata, I pass it down to my students... 3 of my students were recently attacked, 1 by 8 men, to make it more visible, 3 stepped up and 3 went down... the other 5 pulled their friends away! (fighting sets)
The 2nd student was walking out of the grocery store with groceries in hand, a bit after 9pm, guy asks for spare change, is told no... next thing he feels something, moves but still gets hit across the cheek with an object.. opened his face a bit, he took the dude down but isn't as versed in Shou Shu yet... he loses focus and starts beating the guy and a 2nd guy comes up from behind and starts choking him in a headlock... he reaches under and grabs him by the nuts! Security guy steps in and breaks it apart.... yellow belt material
2nd attack and 2nd victory for street application!
3rd and closest to home... 3rd person is my wife... fresh baby black female! she's walking downtown sac to buy lunch and is approached by guy who agressively tells her she has his walled under her arm.. he attempts to reach for it and she swiftly and effectively nails him in the groin! She said she's never seen someone drop like that! she went for a punch to the face but the deal was closed!
hmmmmm It works!
Yeah it does, Shun Shifu. I remember getting jumped by several guys when I was an orange belt. I fought them all off and didn't suffer a single punch.
Lol .. Nice .... Former what's with u and the linage of shou shu ?
Shou. Shu is not what it's called in china thats what it's called in America
yes da shifu studied with Ed Parker yes he studyed with the bok Fu guy but they also studied from him
I'll say it again, in a different manner. If Da Shifu Sr. studied Kenpo and some other arts, and then created Shou Shu, (which is a better art than any of the ones he supposedly stuided ;)), I'm even more impressed with him!
Former, the thing is, you're trying to get people to turn their back on Shou Shu but in fact you're causing them to remember the most important thing, Shou Shu as a fighting art is what matters. Not it's history, not what others say about it, etc. All those things mean nothing to those who have scratched Shou Shu's surface. So I thank you for helping at least me to remember that a posteriori knowledge is king.
Mad Max has stated it pretty clearly I think. Good job.
Former you are stating a lot of your claims and research as truth. It is not. Your very talented at making a case on falsifications. You'd make a good politician.
Funny thing I ran into recently just by coincidence. Dr. David Hawkins mentioned in one of his seminar series about traveling around China after WWII. He was in the Navy, same age, and very similar stories. Wonder if he's lying too.
Ba Fu is correct. I've heard a few eye witness accounts from students who studied in the Richard Lee Bok Fu school. some of these students witnessed Da' shifu coming to the school to teach the black belts there (Including Mr. Lee)
These were students who had no knowledge of this argument and told me offhandedly.
I'm sorry I don't spend the time to research each and every one of your claims but again. It's just not as important to me as it is to you.
Looky what I found.. hehe
Hey Madmax,
That's an old version of the site I built. I thought I had it removed from the archive. Funny. I was just about to upload some of those old videos onto www.shoushu.org
Nice I remeber that camp
shun shifu how much do you charge a month for lessons?
does Shou Shu have tai chi in it?
do you teach how to defend with mma stylists atacks and gang m.a attacks
thanks.
O.C JUNKY
Why do u care so much about what we think of shou shu and it's History ?
Why do u care so much about what we think of shou shu and it's History ?
Why do u care so much about what we think of shou shu and it's History ?
Bà Fu, I'm thoroughly convinced he's with Kenpo or some other art and is trying to get students or get back students. What other motive could there be.
I was really enjoying the information being shared on this site but once again this person has been allowed to stir up this continuous tirade of bad mouthing Da'Shifu Sr. and Shou Shu. I make it a point to stay away from negative circles... I just don't have time for it. I used to let this guy get me upset and had the want to find him to teach him a lesson about respect and integrity... but you know what? I feel sorry for the guy, he's probably some out-of-shape, loser of many attempts in life, guy that needs this type of drama to fuel his empty life. I can't be apart of that, best wishes
Shun Shifu Vargas
Elk Grove Shou Shu School
Agreed Shun Shifu Vargas. Shun Shifu Weaver, if you have any more stories yould like to share, I'm sure most here would love to hear them!
Phil, looks like mcnaby my have found the school were da shifu studied at ? Do u think it is ?
Questions for "Former"
1--What is your motivation for the negative propaganda you are spreading in this forum regarding Shou Shu?
2--What rank did you achieve while you were in Shou Shu?
3--What happened to you that made you so bitter and negative about Shou Shu?
4--Do you think YOUR lack of knowledge about our system diminishes the effectiveness of Shou Shu? Do you think poorly written accounts of your shoddy research can discredit our system?
5--Do you have anything positive to add to this forum?
My final comments are simply advice:
Spend more time working on your chosen martial art, and less time trying to discredit a martial art you chose to abandon. Maybe this is why you failed in Shou Shu. Practice humility and respect for others. You have successfully stirred the pot on an internet forum. Could you be as effective in a street fight where you or someone you care about depends on your ability as a martial artist?
You know what's great about Shou Shu? You can always come back. In the meantime, why don't you take a nap or something and let someone else talk for a while. Take care young man.
Former, so you're saying by the time he got his black in Kenpo, he knew 1000+ techniques. LOL.
So how does one learn a 1000 tech in a couple years. Heck, in Shou Shu theres like 120 tech to get your black and that usually takes around 3-5 years.
LOL.
And tech names, who cares. What style doesn't teach a round house kick. Does that mean they're all the same exact kick?
So did Da Shifu Schaffer rip off Kenpo too?
Hello Everyone,
Sorry for my absence. I've been busy.
Ba' Fu. No Shun Shifu Mcnabney did not find the original. I speak with him on occasion and that is not what he is claiming. He simply wanted to continue with learning Beasts and found somewhere to study them. But what he has told me they are not too much like the Shou' Shu' beasts. That's about all I know about that.
Yes it is true that the number of techniques to kenpo black belt is huge. Which in itself says something. It can't possibly be as deep. Very wide, but not deep. Heck I spent the last two weeks worth of lessons just introducing the first green technique to new blue belts.
Gary Schaeffer was certainly involved with kenpo back then. There is a history there. But I have dabbled in his art and it is nothing like kenpo either. It doesn't seem to have the beast power of Shou' Shu' but it does have some intereting stuff. He does know kenpo though. He trained in it as a kid.
SSW
Is there a relationship between Gary Scaeffer's father Al Schaeffer and Al Moore? Also is there a relationship with the Schaeffer and the Moore's?
Is there a relationship between Gary Scaeffer's father Al Schaeffer and Al Moore? Also is there a relationship with the Schaeffer and the Moore's?
Yes
Tracy's were making money.
He couldn't hold a student teaching them the way he had been taught
Shun shifu , what had happened to shun shifu Clark ? I heArd he left the moores system ? Is that true
BA Fu
True
Shun shifu So is there any one who knows where the school is?
Yes, do you have an account at www.shoushu.org?
No but I sign up, I'll use the same sn
You are welcome to ask any questions of Master Schaffer directly at: gary.schaffer yahoo.com
DaShifu Brown
Are you a Sheng Hun DaShifu?
shun shifu i am still waitting to be approved
Oops, sorry, your good to go now
I have been in martial arts since I was 15, I am now 48. I was in Shou Shu from the beginning of its start in Lodi. After I had achieved my 2nd degree in brown, the system had changed...such as new techniques were added. This was due to a "brainstorming session" by Da Shifu Al and Dashifu Ralph. My question is, Why do you need to add techniques if your art comes from an ancient martial art? Also, if I wore my belt every day and tied it 30 times a day, why then would the back of it become frayed? I have kept in contact with 30 year veterans and we have all come to the same conclusion.......If a martial art has something to offer, there should not be any need to add more material. Funny how the "new material" looks exactly like the material that is taught at Al Tracys Kenpo. (You said that all the Moores took Tracys Kenpo)-see above. It was also a practice to pull a blackbelt over the door in order for it to become more worn to look as if the blackbelt was an experienced martial artist. I have read that on occasion you have "dabbled" in other arts...why then does your art suddenly have new material after you have done some "dabbling"? On your website you say that you do the pure form of Chin Ye only with your blackbelts in private? Where did you get that? You were only thrown a few bones by Shi Gong Schaffer. It is not professional practice to steal material and claim it as your own!!
To answer a few questions, Shi Gong Schaffer did start at Tracys Kenpo. He does remember Al and Ralph Moore being there. Shi Gong Schaffer was only 7 and brought into Kenpo by his father Al Schaffer who did have a black belt. Shi Gong continued in Kenpo until he was 18. Because he enjoyed martial arts so much, he also took on a second art at age 16 and gained a black belt in Shou Du Kan. Shi Gong Schaffer quit Kenpo due to a business disagreement with Al Tracy. Although Shi Gong had quit Kenpo, he still holds Al Tracy in highest regards and respect. Shi Gong Schaffer went to Master Wong and asked for more lessons but out of respect for Al Tracy, he was denied any further lessons in Hun Gar. Because Shi Gong had a desire to continue learing martial arts, the Hun Gar boys that he worked out with got him in contact with the Ching family. (Ching means the pure one in the Chinese dictionary, look it up). Therefore there is no mixing of animals in Sheng Hun. Shi Gong Schaffer took lessons for 25 years, on the 24th year he entered into Mu Shim (sp?). As for Shi Gong Schaffer ripping off Kenpo, it was a huge task for the late Shi Gong Ching to train out the movement that he had learned from old pine tree style martial arts and to train in pure animal motion. In Shi Gong Schaffers lessons, he had to show Shi Gong Ching the motions that he knew. Then Shi Gong Schaffer would have to attact Shi Gong Ching and he would demonstrate the proper body motion in the pure animal motion.
As for the relationship between Al Schaffer and Al Moore, Tracys Kenpo had Thursday fight night. You had to stay on the mat until you lost. Al Schaffer was consistent in winning over Al Moore. This is a nice way of putting it and you can check this with Al Tracy. Al Schaffer walked into your Al Moores Karate School with no knowledge of the passing of Dashi Fu Al Moore and with no fear.
In the past you have tried to align your school with Far East Fighting Arts because you no longer have a relationship with Moores Karate. Integrity and ethics speak for itself. That is why you will never be tied to any other martial art. At this point we would put you in the same category as the Grand Shifu up in Oregon who does nothing but take money from his students and buy videos online then teach it back to his students. (Proven fact)
In conclusion, do NOT speak of anything of which you have no knowledge! I have tried to be respectful, but the truth is the truth!!
Dashifu Brown asked Shi Gong Schaffer if he would like to respond to this post and he said that he would rather fight than type.
E-NOL
Enlightened, got any clips of Kenpo guys doing their cobra cause ive seen 3rd degrees do some that looked nothing like Shou Shus. ive also seen clips of Da Shifu Schaffer doing cobra that looked nothing like Shou Shu's either.
interesting
As far as I know, there are no clips of any cobra motion that is based upon ancient training methods. What you may have seen is Shi Gong Schaffers little brother doing an empty form of cobra. This was posted to show that Sheng Hun does in fact teach the ancient training methods of the Ching Family motion but not give out any fighting cobra principles. There are so many unscrupulous people out there who will take a movement and claim it as their own and complettely screw up the motion and timing. This is why Far East Fighting Arts is offering seminars to the public so there will be NO question about the credability of the art. Look forward to these seminars in the near future.
There are many Kenpo websites for you to view their motion. Id rather you find them for yourself, there are no true cobra forms in Kenpo/Hungar, this includes Shou Shu. You might be interested to look at the symbol that Shou Shu uses, in Chinese it means massage. Look it up for yourself.
Which Shou Shu symbol, there are many. Also, you say you got to 2nd brown in Shou Shu, Cobra isnt taught in its purity until you get to 5th black. Not to be a jerk, but how do you know whats taught at that level.
Thanks.
Shun Shifu, if you'ld like to talk more about this guy, I'm sure I'm not the only one that would love to hear all about it.
"I have found one guy who had a purely cobra art. He was as shocked to find me as I him"
Thanks
Just an FYI. I put a call in to Far East Fighting Arts last night asking if what "Enlightened-not a lemming" is saying represents them. It's to easy to impersonate on the web and It would probably not be wise to comment to "Enlightened-not a lemming" if he is not speaking for them. If it turns out he is not I'll just delete the posts.
On another note. I consider the post to be UCC and therefor spam. If the objective is to promote a Sheng Hun seminar then you may do so on your own hub. They are free to write. Just create your own account.
Mad Max. I'll give you the info I have. Unfortuantely it's not a lot. I met the guy a number of years back when I was running a booth at the Calaveras County Fair. His kids approached the booth so he had to follow. I could tell that his opinion was that we had nothing to offer him. But then he noticed the cobra and became inquisitive. He was pretty tight lipped but after we compared a few motions he openened up a little. He was obviously very perplexed that we had cobra and I could show that I had it. He demonstrated a little cobra punch and that was enough for me to know that there was something there. I do not know the depth of his knowledge but there is a connection of some sort.
He said he had learned from a guy privately in New York and he didn't think anyone else was teaching it. Since the history books say that cobra is a lost art I can understand his confusion. He thought he was the only one. As did we.
I thought I would be able to catch up with him later since I had him fill out a contact form. But when I got back to the studio I never could find the right form. I did search a lot. However I do remember he said he lived in Copperopolis.
Sorry I don't know anything more than that. I wish I did. But I can say with relative certainty that cobra does exist out there somewhere aside from us. Probably taught privately in someones garage.
SSW
To Mad Max--the symbol that I am referring to is the one that is referred to as "Moores magic hands", thats what I was told that the symbol meant, it was also made into medallions to wear on a chain.
To Mr. Weaver--The "call" that you are referring to was a voice message on the answering machine. Dont pretend that you are in contact with anyone from Far East Fighting Arts.
My posts are not a forum to promote FarEast Fighting Arts seminars. I am just informing people who are thirsting for the truth. I also have no tolerance for people who steal from others and call the material their own.
Thanks Shun Shifu, thats very interesting.
Enlightened-not a lemming, what about Shou Shu's Cobra form. You only got to 2nd brown, so how could you know all there is to know about Shou Shu's Cobra.
Thanks
I guess I didn't clarify that I left a message. I thought that was obvious since I inferred I was awaiting an answer.
I didn't get a return call.
I guess I didn't clarify that I left a message. I thought that was obvious since I inferred I was awaiting an answer.
I didn't get a return call.
Former meet enlightened
Enlightened , former
You two have a lot to talk about
Enjoy!
lol
I gotta get me some popcorn.
Mad Max; add a box of red vines for me! Lol
Checking in at the sand box.
Looks like a few cats have decided to use the sandbox as a litter box, so let me get the pooper scooper out and clean up.
Let’s be clear, posting as “anonymous” has no credibility. If you’re not a big enough person to put your real name on a statement, then you shouldn’t be saying it.
Former- We all get it; in fact everyone on the planet gets it but you. You were wronged in some way by Da Shifu, or by Jr. or by someone who knew them, congratulations, welcome to life.
Gary- posting as “enlightened” shows how unenlightened you are. Anyone enlightened exercises humility. And if "enlightened" is not you, then call the police, you have a stalker!
Any Martial Artist should just celebrate what they know; you don’t see Tae Kwon Do people running around trying to destroy Aikido people, their just happy doing what they are doing.
Basic rule of the universe: “What you focus on expands”. You two spend so much time trying to discredit Da’ Shifu and Shou’ Shu’. In reality all you’re doing is sending it energy, bringing out and together those who love and support it. Thanks.
Go volunteer at the homeless shelter it will help you put your priorities back in line.
Shifu Liz Weaver
Liz, I am a female and my name certainly isnt Gary, nor was he in the Karatesize class that I attended when Marilyn was running the classes. You certainly are not the creator! As for you calling Shi Gong Schaffer by his first name, you can call him whatever you want, on the street he is a fighter. He is not a cult leader who must have little kids do full salutes to him in the grocery store.
I have knowledge of the 5th degree material because a friend of mine happened to live with the person who made it up. That is the reason why I know what it is. There are many reasons why Phil doesnt know what it is, and how could he know since he is only a 3rd degree, or did he make himself grand master? A kata is a kata, hard style that lacks the fundamentals of cobra.
As for you attacking me, this is one cat that doesnt have American Kenpo techniques in her form. Isnt Shou Shu supposed to be a pure animal art? Why then do you have Kenpo techniques in your tiger kata? And why did you change your school name from Shou Shu to Sheng Chi..after you had met Shi Gong Schaffer and learned about Sheng Hun? Remember what Phil wrote on the old forum that "sheng hun has greatly helped his shou shu". Keep in mind he only threw a few bones and never gave you anything. Sheng Hun has far more material than shou shu could possibly offer, as you are painfully aware.
As for me being in the litter box, then what trailer did you crawl out of? I dont wear a thong that says "who's your shifu?"
As for me helping others, I have helped others more than you could possibly know. I am a person who thinks that the truth deserves to be exposed. You have stollen from others and profited from the lies.
Enlightened, are you representing Far East Fighting Arts in your statements?
And by the way, nobody from the Shou Shu system ever harmed me,nor my family in any way. Except for spreading the Shou Shu lies. This is all about truth.
Have your paster call Al Tracy and the men listed above. Then maybe you could hear the sound of reason. Maybe!
Helping? You do know that enlightenment means having no ego, right?
Bravo!
I'm not a martial artist, but this is certainly a fascinating little spat. If it's alright with everyone, I have a couple of questions / suggestions I would like to put out there:
First, I think it would be really helpful if Former gave us some sort of motivation for his posts other than truth seeking. I don't want to be hypercritical here, but "online consumer advocate expose" just doesn't make sense as a justification for a series of posts going back over nine months. The world is full of charlatans so it seems improbable that out of all of the possible choices you would single out this particular individual unless some sort of catalyst had driven you to it. I guess what I am getting at is that as a reader I feel like I deserve some sort of juicy motivation on your part that I can really sink my teeth into. Did Mr. Moore slight you in some way, cheat you in cards, insult your ancestry? These are just cliched examples, I hope whatever you come up with will be more creative.
Next, I really think Enlightened needs to clarify her allegiances in this little webdrama. Her character was introduced a little late in the game, and to be honest it was a little confusing. Are you with former or are you an unaffiliated third party itching to get in on the digital fisticuffs? I think you need to make you intentions clear. If you are simply a third party then I suppose we can fit you into the story line so long as you let us in on your motivations early on, none of this pussyfooting around like former has been doing. Please give your motivation some kind of interesting twist though, example: madmax9's estranged child or lover, you get the idea.
I hope everyone can apply themselves and get this story back on track within the next couple of weeks otherwise I may begin to lose interest.
Break a Leg,
-Mike
P.S. It should go without saying but, if this thing spills over into real life it would be incredibly bad form not to record it and post the video to youtube (with a link at this hub of course!)
Former wont tell us, that would ruin his game. F and E are probably the same person.. lol
And well said Shifu Liz.
Two Vilians, the would be hero, the audience eating popcorn, and NOW a narrator. This is freakin awesome. I think we could go on the road.
Madmax9, no they are not the same person. That would be hilarious though.
Former FINALLY changed his ISP. He has been using AOL all this time (I can't believe anyone still uses AOL) and the IP addresses are notoriously hard to trace. They have proxy servers all over. But now he switched to Clearwire and the IP address puts him in Stockton. I was a little surprised by that. He nearly had me convinced of his altruistic intentions to rid the world of our ways. But Stockton? There's a heavy Moore's Shou' Shu' presence there and lots of kenpo/kempo (which was he?). I think there may really be a beef of some kind.
And Enlightened, she's broadcasting from beautiful Oakdale Ca using ATT. Not far, but far enough that we can safely say they are not the same person.
I've done a bit more sleuthing but didn't come up with anything provable. Then I got bored. I can be a bit ADHD.
Thanks tuning in.
SSW
Shun Shifu Weaver,
It got kinda quiet. I think it is interesting, the locations and all, guess we'll have to see if there is still more to come.
Shifu Salindong
I like this..." A kata is a kata, hard style that lacks the fundamentals of cobra."
That's funny.. Shou Shu's cobra kata is considered "hard". Maybe hard to comprehend, but it surely is soft, lol.
I find all of this rather interesting, but ultimately irrelevant. It does not matter were it comes from. What matters is that it works. What I'm learning from Jim Clark is effective and powerful and that's enough for me. (although I may come back later to stay abreast of the drama.)
Wojack,
Exactly!!!
Jim Clark? Is that Shifu Clark (7th black Shou Shu)?
And I agree with your statements.
Madmax9
8th
8th black and yes that's him.
Why did a bunch of ppl leave shou shu after Al Moore died?
Why no one reply to me? :*(
How do you figure "a bunch" of people left? The system within Moore's is stronger than ever.....
Why the split? Why did a bunch of ppl leave when the son took over?
I heard it was creative diffrencives.But who cares we are still shou shu, sheng chi, sliver claw ,ba hei long, etc..it's all shou. Shu and it works it's efecctive , everyone else kick rocks ! We don't disrespect ur art or styles.. Who cares the history the linagie . Crav maga has no fancy history and was created ,, but who here can say it's not effective , ppl need to grow up. U don't see the higer ups bickering like the underlings
So shun shi Fu, in your optnion how hard is to master the bear
Dai Lo,
I generally avoid the word master. To me it implies that a person has learned and perfected everything there is to know about a thing. In Shou' Shu' and probably many things I do not think this is possible.
However, to answer your question, we estimate it at approximately 2000 hours of disciplined training to get to an acceptable skill level of any of the black belt degrees.
Wow, thats a Da Shifu every 2.39 years at 16 hours a day. To study like the old school, how cool would that be. Tho your head would probably be so big, it would get you killed.
Mad Max,
Funny I never thought about it like that. However we do know that total immersion drastically speeds things up. Think about camp. The material you go to camp on is always the best. That's why Da' Shifu didn't let anyone go home Sat night of camp. He wanted to keep them immersed to up retention.
interesting...
Intersting..2000 hours wow.. Lot of traning I better get start then
I was thinking of enrolling my son in the Elk Grove Studio under Shun Shifu Vargas. He seems like a nice guy who's got his SH$t together.
Seem's like alot of anonymosity on these pages.. he said...she said. I think whatever you believe in and it works for you should be good enough for YOU... If people are on this site to try to prove the timelines of the ART or people who helped propel the ART.. then they aren't practicing the ART and are defeating themselves.
What about the people who get something out of the discipline? as I did...
I have a father that tearfully thanked me for the changes in his 16yr old son. He brought him to the school in search of improvements in his focus and confidence. His son grew up diagnosed with ADHD.
Within 60 days of working with him, the ADHD was no longer noticable! His dad couldn't believe what was happening. His grades accelerated, he started doing chores around the house and his shyness disappeared. Joey is now 18yrs old and is one of my star students. His dad asked him about 6 months ago what he wanted for his 18th birthday so he could start saving for it..... his answer was for him to join in Shou Shu with him... they come in 3x a week religiously now.
True story.....
Nice!
I've seen similar stories many times. It's amazing what Shou' Shu' does for ADHD
Agreed! That is awesome.
The week-ends I was with my grandfather, I was fortunate enough, as few as they were, to gain a lifetime of insight.
AM's Grandson, did you walk into the Elk Grove school when I 1st opened up? Maybe i'm mistaken.....
AM's grandson I don't know who you are. Please enlighten us.
Shun Shifu Vargas,
As far as the healing properties of Shou' Shu' just in case you have not run into these.
We have found it to be extremely helpful for the following conditions:
ADHD/ADD
Any learning disability
PTSD
Fibromyalgia
Addictions
Bad backs.
Of course there is much more. There were numerous cases of rehabilitation after accidents and such.
I became very interested in these things and have done a fair amount of research into the reasons as to why it works.
As far as the learning disabilities go I work with an educational therapist who's program at it's core has a lot of similarities with Shou' Shu'. It's amazing that this program which was developed around the latest in brain research turned out to be so similar to teaching Shou' Shu'.
Now that I've come to recognize what's going on I can actually spot the times when a child's mind is trying to reorganize itself. They'll catch onto a motion and want to keep doing it.
I've done a great deal of structuring in our children's classes to take advantage of this phenomena since it benefits all children regardless of learning difference or not.
I also see a great deal of change in those with Asperger's syndrome. Although I don't yet know why it helps yet.
I hope to do more research in this area over the next year and have found a number of scientists and psychologists who's research supports the ideas. All of them agree a mind body approach is the wave of the future for treatment of these conditions.
Congrats to you for recognizing it.
Hi Shun Shifu Vargas... Yes, I did come to your studio and was interested in my son starting Shou Shu with you.
And shunshifu...Yes, I am Al Moore's Grandson. I googled his name and found your blog entertaining.
I started trying to think back how I might have met you and then put 2 n 2 together. I really hope you'll give me the chance to teach your son. He would have a good time with us.
Wow AM's Grandson, pretty cool to have you here! If you have any stories about Da Shifu that yould like to share, I know I'm not the only one here that would love to hear them.
Shun Shifu Vargas,
I knew I had seen this before. Take a look at this
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php
The post by L. Waters is the same exact stuff that our friend here is spreading. Since we know he's in Stockton if you do a people search in Stockton (use yahoo) you'll find that there are 3 L Waters in Stockton. Addresses and phone numbers are available on Yahoo.
That narrow it down enough for you.
SSW
P.S. Take care of Mr. Woodard. He's a great guy and we enjoyed having him here.
Shun Shifu Weaver, Mr. Woodard has nothing but good things to say about you. He is a great addition to the Elk Grove school.
In regards to our dear friend, L Waters, I have to think he is too smart to use his own name.... do you think he would? I'm tellin ya, I would love to locate this guy and hmmmm, hmmmm.... set some things straight!
i'll check the search. thanks!
Great to hear! Glad he's training again.
My thinking is that he created that profile before he was concerned about how many people he was going to anger. It's a possibility anyway.
I had seen these posts quite awhile back but couldn't find them again. They had dropped out of google's index. However google got a lot better with the cayenne upgrade and is finding a lot of old stuff again.
Hey, what is Shuai Shu. It says on Wiki that Da Shifu Sr. knew Shuai Shu but I can't find any info on it.
Thanks.
Yeah Wiki is getting a lot of edits lately and not by me
Many of the throws you know in Shou Shu are Shuai Chiao based. (Shuai Jiao - He pronounced it more like this)
It is a throwing art. Ask about the story of krieger and the Shuai Chiao master (privately in shoushu.org). One of the best stories ever.
Shuai Shu, welllll, I'll just say that I was there when it was uuuummm created. Ask me privately sometime.
Yeah I've heard the stories as well with ShiGung Krieger as well as some others. Lets just say we took it to the next level! ha,ha,ha
I have deleted all of Formers comments. sheesh he was a busy guy
Read some of posts here and as a former Shou Shu student, I remember discussion from my shun Shifu that the art originated from the Mandarin ruling class in china. Was imported to america and taught to the Tong. Any of this sound familiar to anyone?
Yes it does. Actually it was not uncommon around the turn of the century. There were at least a few arts which we're brought to America. One correction. It wasn't taught to the Tong. It was taught to the people that eventually became the Tong. The original intent was to teach it to Chinese immigrants so they could protect themselves.
Just dropping in to say "Hey!"
Starting to get my legs back....It's been a year now since I returned to Shou Shu. Last year my knees hurt just to walk. Now....No pain anymore and I'm getting stronger. Even if I get nothing else from the training...I am one happy OLD dog lol.
Anyone remember my origional Insructor? Shifu Steve Hendricks....He reached 3rd around 1983....Haven't heard from him since then. I joined the military and was gone for about 10 yrs.
Read way up there about the cobra practitioner that was from the east coast that contact info was lost. Here's an interesting link I found from a system which uses the cobra and mongoose in their logo, as well as Mongolian wrestling similar to shaui chiao, i believe its from the east coast.
What I don't understand is why someone would bad mouth a Shifu up in Oregon when that said Shifu has never done anything but help others. Enlightened hopefully you will see this since this is directed at you, maybe you should talk to his black belts before you open your mouth. Please do not make anymore reference to the Shifu from Oregon, I am his daughter and take insult to what you have said. He has always been honest and doesn't deserve your incorrect references. If you have issue you know where this is coming from and you can bring them to me as the Shifu that you are speaking of has been very ill and we are fortunate that he is alive. I am his daughter and proud to call him father and teacher as are his students that he has had for over 20 years. I am sorry to all others about this post, but I could not let that "Proven Fact" go unanswered.
Suzanne
I am in love with this art form but alas I have no one near me, (no one I can find), to teach me this art. For years I have desired to find some way of disciplining my mind and body and I finally find the art and have little way to pursue it. Does anyone know of any masters or place of learing anywere near the 92084 area code? Please email me I am so willing to learn and with out a teacher please some one help.
ceamay@gmail.com
Maec, theres a school in Indio
Can someone answer the following:
1. What City in China did Shou Shu originate?
2. Who was the original Shou Shu Grand Master in Mainland china?
3. What ever happened to this Jimmy Chin guy? Did he not start his own school?
4. What is shou shu called in main land china?
5. Shoalin Kung fu teaches 5 animal system- how is the 7 animal system of shou shu different?
6. What are the main weapon systems taught in shou shu?
7. Is there is a shou shu association or federation in China that can provide some sort of QC for this art?
8. If one was to visit china- where can he find a Shou sho school or training camp???
thegreyman,
Email Jung Moon and ask him. If anyone knows, its him.
Discussion page or Talk page Wikipedia
Interview with Mr. Moore
Point of interest
1. HN: How about your family--when did you start teaching them? Da Shifu: I started teaching my brothers when I was learning. I would come home and teach them in the evening. I took a lesson every day and then I would come home and work with my brothers.
1b. HN: How did your parents feel about it? Da Shifu: They didn’t know about it for a long time. They knew that some of my friends’ fathers were well-to-do-people China-town. HN: In Chinatown where? Da Shifu: In Emeryville. I got an invitation to study there in Chinatown, though at that time I didn’t even know what they were talking about other than learning how to fight. I thought that was great. Jimmy Chin was a good friend of mine. His father asked him if I wanted to come over and do it with them, and so I did. We all took “A” period in junior high school, so we got off at 2:20. We would go right in and study for an hour every night. It was very rough teaching. I mean the Chinese-- they figured that if you couldn’t take it, they would beat you up right away and get it over with. I think there were fifty in my class and only five of us finished. It was really rough. I mean they would kick you, throw you, punch you, everything really hard on hardwood floor
1c. HN: How many brothers and sisters do you have? Da Shifu: Two brothers and three sisters.
Please explain how the answer to the question in 1b could have be possible with the other statements.
2.Da Shifu That’s an important part, the fact that the confidence make you lose your fear and you think better. It used to be that you would go into a place and there would be five men and one would be a great big muscle guy and he would be brow-beating the rest of them. Say you have a job to do, the smaller man was possibly the better man for the job--the smartest, the best, everything. But if he even opened his mouth and started to bring his opinion out, the guy would look at him and threaten him. So he would shut up. And he wouldn’t get the promotion. This great big strong guy was constantly getting promoted using the knowledge of the rest of these people to get him up. I have people who have been on jobs seven, eight years, who never could get promoted. They just stayed right there where they were. Really intelligent people who could really do the job, and the reason they couldn’t get promoted is they didn’t have the confidence. They’d walk in, that guy would brow-beat them, and they would back down. They’d get in, get confidence, lose their fear; they would walk in, the guy would give them the mean look and they’d just kind of look at him and go right on and present what they had to present to the boss. And they would start getting promotions. This is really common, I see it a lot.
Think Mr Moore was talking about himself, and is this where the art of Shou Shu came from.
Da Shifu: How big of a situation? One man, two men, ten men? See, as you go up through the ranks of the black belts, your capabilities get so much stronger. Your capabilities of fighting people and defending yourself are constantly getting better. I was attacked-- this was abut nine or ten years ago. It happened in the bay area. There were twelve guys in their early twenties. When the cops got there, they had to bring the ambulance. Eight of the guys had to go to the hospital and the rest of them needed first aid. And I was still in good shape. HN: Why would twelve men attack you? For any special reason? Da Shifu: Just a street gang. HN: So you came by and they decided they were going to do something? Da Shifu: That’s right. They thought they were going to come out and knock me around a little bit, have themselves a good old time. You know, move me down on the street. But that’s not the way it happened. HN: That’s’s great. That’s very good. I want to thank you much, Da Shifu. Da Shifu: You are very welcome.
Oh!
Simple observations & Questions.
HN: Is there another Da Shifu other than your brother in your system? Da Shifu: Not in the United States. There are only four in China.
Da Shifu I think there were fifty in my class and only five of us finished.
Questions
1. Is there any students produced from Lou Chin before or after Al Moore's class, did he stop teaching?
.2 a What happened to Jimmy Chin? 2. Why Al Moore to China & not Jimmy Chin?
3. What happened to the other three students that finished with Jimmy Chin & Al Moore?
4. How did Al Moore know the number of Shou Shu masters in China after around thirty years?
(1947 to 1976)
5. What contact exists today with the with Shou Shu in China, & did Al Moore pass this information on to his brothers & top students?
HN: How many schools do you have now? Da Shifu: Nine in California and two others out of state. HN: Do you have any idea how many students you have through-out the whole system? Da Shifu: I would say somewhere between 2500 and 3000.
HN: How many of your students have become black belts? In other words, how many black belts do you have? Da Shifu: I would have to look in my roll, but off hand I would say somewhere between sixty and seventy.
This is a 1976 article, below is a list of Shou Shu masters alive today.
A list of all living Grand Masters and Masters:(Grand Masters) Jung Moon Al Moore, DaShifu Ralph Moore, DaShifu Parkins, DaShifu Smith, DaShifu Freier, DaShifu Sigfried. Masters: ShiHan James Clark (7th), ShiGung Amata (6th), ShiGung Pierini (6th), ShiGung Lara(5th), ShiGung Way (5th), ShiGung Krieger(5th), ShiGung Martin(5th), ShiGung Potts(5th), ShiGung Mendoza(5th), ShiGung Roberts(5th), ShiGung Denning(5th), ShiGung Meeks(5th), ShiGung Chang (5th), ShiGung Booey (5th), ShiGung Reiswan (5th), ShiGung Palios (5th), and ShiHan Valadao (5th).
Questions.
1. Were any of the master listed above Black Belts in 1976?
2. Shou Shu had over 2500 students and over sixty black belts in 1976, How many members in the Shou Shu system today, pre-date 1976? at 10% would be around 250, and all woud be black belt by now with over 34 years in the shou Shu system.
3. In what years did the Moore's family quit the Kenpo systems? Records show Al Moore the 2nd was still with Richard Lee in the early seventies. Point- Question 2.
4. Known martial artists list the dates of training in the system, or systems they train in. What is the time spent in the Shou Shu system of the masters listed above?
Great Questions (L1)... I would love if your questions and my questions where answered.
Here is a article from Germany on Shou Shu from Ju-Jutsu Instructor Henrik Stoldt.
Search
SC Fudji meets Shou Shu
I have been around Shou Shu for many years , I have seen Al and his son do some pretty amazing stuff that would be hard to explain. Having said that I've also seen Jung Moon pile on BS so thick youd need backhoe to get out. I have never posted on these before but I can say that all the accounts of shou shu origins are wrong , I dont think Jung Moon even knows. Maybe Ralph will cough it up before he dies. The story I heard of the true origins is a little less paletable for potential customers but much more likely. Its also not my story to tell. This is an american art with alot of influences,many of those being its practioners over the years.
Old School- Thanks, I agree. I mean the art is pretty lethal. I am only doubtin the origins. After much research and talking to several Shou Shu dudes; I believe that Mr. Moore (AL) created this art by mixing Kempo with Saholin Kung FU and some wing Chun. I don;t buy the whole jimmy chingo or Triad thing..just does not make sense.
Agree, research and phone calls verify many of the statements made by Henrik Stoldt hold true. Kenpo & something called White Crane Kung Fu, information from three different sources.
L1
Chris Chan's US Wing Chun Kung Fu Academy
Sifu Ron Dong / White Crane Kung Fu
Grandmaster Chan left for America in 1960. Before leaving Hong Kong, he trained intensively for 12-16 hours a day, 7 days a week, under Yip Man's close guidance.
After arriving in San Francisco by boat, he earned a living teaching Wing Chun while studying engineering in college. He earned his degree in mechanical/structural engineering and began his career as a Mechanical Engineer. Over the past 40 years, he has taught privately and semi-privately, maintaining a low profile yet establishing a well-respected, worldwide reputation as an extraordinarily powerful and knowledgeable martial artist.
Interview with Al Moore
Da Shifu: I would say somewhere between fifteen and twenty years. You want to remember that I trained every day in China, I took seven lessons a day.
HN: You say you went to college--did you receive a college degree? Da Shifu: Yes, I am a engineer. HN: So karate is not your only field of endeavor? Da Shifu: It is the only one I have now. HN: When did you first decide to go into teaching commercially and set up your studios? Da Shifu: My first commercial endeavor was in 1954 or 1955. I had a part time school. HN: You were a engineer until then? Da Shifu: I was a engineer until a long time after that. It was always part time. This is what happened: I made a lot of money as a engineer,
So I think we can all conclude, that while Shou Shu is a highly effective art. It is also an American art with JAP/CHIN roots. I wish the folks at moore's and Mr. Weaver would just stop telling the lie and telle veryone the truth. AL MOORE created this art and that's that.
A high percentage of all confidence schemes, are never reported, due to pride, embarrassment and many other human characteristics.
Yall are funny. If Al Moore Sr. created Shou Shu, that would make him even more of a genius. Why would he pass it off as something he learned in China? And I'll tell you this, people that study Shou Shu don't sit around and talk about this kind of thing. They learn and practice Shou Shu. Most don't know anything about Lou Chin or his supposed studies in China. The instructor talks a little about what he will teach to a potential student and then starts teaching it, if the student signs up. I studied under Da Shifu Jr. and he never talk about this kind of thing. Yall act like the instructors go around brainwashing students. The students know how to fight, thats it. They dont know the history and dont care anyway. If Da Shifu Jr. said Sr. just learned Kenpo and put a twist on it, no one would give a sh!t. they would say, ok, can we learn some more Shou Shu now. lol funny people you are. will you ever understand the Shou Shu folks... no
and another thing. i hope it is all a lie. i hope it's a trick Da Shifu Sr. is playing on all of us to help us see that Shou Shu is important for its effectiveness as a fighting art, not because its some legendary, secret art blah blah blah. that we should trust what we exp and to hell what we hear.
MadMax9- this is for you. I never said Shou shu is not effective. Read my posts. Actually I said it is highly effective. I only doubted its dubious origins protrayed by the Moore folks. This art never existing in China, and is made up by Mr. Moore. That said, maybe he was a genius for making this art up or mixing kempo with white crane. My angst is that their history is clearly a lie and the true story should be noted on their website. To answer your question, why did they tell the fake story, well it just makes it more mystical and adds to the mystic. Now they still messed that part up, as they call it Moore's karate, while claiming it to be chinese. Any moron can see the flaw with that, and what's up with the belts???? Kung Fu uses sash's-That's it.
I used to study shou shu in Lodi, then moved away. Again it is a good art for defense.
Shou shu is no joke. I studied it, but I guess their history never made sense now that I think about it.
Great Point Greyman
HN: At what age did you start karate? Da Shifu Moore: Thirteen. HN: Where were you when you first started? Da Shifu: Emeryville, California. HN: Did you have oriental instructors? Da Shifu: Oh yes, Lou Chin. HN: What style of karate was it? Da Shifu: The same style we are doing here now, the Mandarin style. HN: How old were you when you got your first degree black belt? Da Shifu: Seventeen and a half. HN: Is that when you went to China? Da Shifu: No, I went to China after World War ll. HN: Oh! After World War ll. What rank were you then? Da Shifu: I was still first degree black belt--I had a lot more training than that then--and I went to China to finish up my training. HN: What year did you receive your first degree black belt? Da Shifu: 1943. HN: Oh, so that was during the war. Da Shifu: Yes, during the war.
During this time in China's history World War ll The Japanese occupied Eastern China 1937 to 1945, not very likely to advance students under your enemy's promotion system.
TheGreyMan, I never said you said it wasnt effective and from what I've heard, Da Shifu Sr. called it Karate cause back when he started up his schools, everyone knew what Karate was, they didn't know what Kung Fu was, so it made it less confusing. And as far as using belts, lol, who cares, its convenient. It's sad, people are so stuck on the whole business model of Shou Shu vs the art itself. I guess if you're studying to learn how to fight, all this stuff means nothing, lol. If people have a problem with Shou Shu's business model, learn the art, and go start your own school, with your own business model.
Point!
According to Al Moore in his interview (above) it was Lou Chin, Chinese Master of Shou Shu starting the practice of passing out black belts to Chinese emigrants (Tongs) and himself in China town 1943.not to the US public.
OK, Lou Chin was NOT a master of a martial art. He was a master of washing dishes. He worked for the Ching family in the city. He was taught very little and yet it might have been enough to protect the store front. He taught his son Jimmy what he knew which was very little when it came to the Ching family art. Some people seem to fabricate a history for personal gains.
BUYERS PLEASE BEWARE!!!
There is only one that is teaching the true art!!!
The truth is the truth.....like it or not!
And who is that?
The Research of any organizations for any endeavor, training, investment, schools, verifiable facts should be your first concern. Is the organization a stand alone entity. Is it recognized, or compete in it's field with others in the same field. All organizations / business / corporations have a paper trail of when they were started. Very easy for the member in question to post a date and location where the business originated. State-city,(most) creditable organizations do this for the reason of research verification.
Shihan Robert Halliburton (1944-2008)
As a brown belt, Mr. Halliburton began entering karate tournaments, quickly becoming a rising star on the fiercely competitive Texas martial arts scene. Throughout his competitive career, Mr. Halliburton competed against some of the top martial artists of all time, and he earned many distinctions: he is a former regional, national, and international champion; he was rated among the top ten fighters in the United States in 1970, 1971, and 1972; he was a member of Ed Parker’s 1968 US vs. Korea and 1969 US vs. Hawaii and East Coast vs. West Coast Fighting Teams. In 1966, he was Grand Champion of the Texas State Karate Championships, and in 1971, Mr. Halliburton became the Heavyweight Champion of Ed Parker’s prestigious International Karate Championships. As a martial arts competitor, Mr. Halliburton was selected to serve on competitive teams with karate notables Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Ron Marchini, and Skipper Mullins, among others. In 1965, Mr. Halliburton came to Fresno, California, to teach at the newly opened Way of Japan Karate School on Belmont Avenue.
Ralph Moore
on Apr 26, 2008
SENSI HALLIBURTON
THEIR WERE ONLY A FEW OF US ICONS LEFT NOW WE HAVE LOST ANOTHER. I MET BOB ABOUT 40 YEARS AGO.WHEN THE ART WAS STILL YOUNG HERE IN THE STATES.WE BECAME GOOD FRIENDS THRU THOSE EARLY YEARS.BOB HAD A LARGE IMPACT ON MY NEPHEW AL MOORE JR.HE ALWAYS HELPED HIM STAY ON THE STRAIGHT AND NARROW PATH.WHEN WE OPENED IN FRESNO. HE WAS LIKE A UNCLE TO HIM IAM SURE BOB KNEW HOW MUCH WE APPREACATED HIS HELP. WE WILL MISS HIM BUT HE IS WITH A LOT OF HIS FRIENDS INCLUDING MY BROTHERS. A SALUTE TO YOU BOB. DA SHIFU RALPH MOORE
Not sure what your point is L1.
Opinion journalism is journalism that makes no claim of objectivity, the reader decides, or in a court room the case is put forth and a judge or jury comes to a conclusion.
What we know.
Al & Ralph Moore were to of the Tracy's first black belts, 1960's Chinese Kenpo
Both received black belts in Bok Fu under Richard Lee. White Tiger.
A few years later Al junior received his black from Richard Lee, 1970's
Al Moore's story of training in China mirror's the story of Chris Chan's US Wing Chun Kung Fu
Sifu Ron Dong / White Crane Kung Fu also taught in the bay area during this period.
Moore's trained under martial art greats Bob Blackmoore, Richard Lee, Steve La Bounty, Mr Halliburton. Al Tracy. ( All Confirmed )
We know the Moore's trained with some best martial artists known in the US from mid 60's to mid 70's.
Tracy's first black belts mid sixty's, to Al Junior with Richard Lee in the mid seventy's.
First business looks to be Fresno, Lodi, early 70's,
(post of first location of Moore's Karate, City & state would verify this information) Public Records.or Local newspaper fictitious name statement.
Question or point.
How much of this information is shared with the public from the Moore's.
I haven't heard about any of this in any of the schools, but I haven't see mongoose, cobra, mantis, etc, in any of those styles listed either. Just because other styles have similar names for their techs or similar weapons (crane strikes, tiger paws) doesn't mean its the same crane or tiger style that Shou Shu teaches. That would be like saying every tiger style or crane style in the world is the same. But people don't understand this. I've seen lots of crane styles that look nothing like Shou Shu's, same with mantis.
Once one understands the science of motion of mantis, cobra etc, as in the techniques in Tracy's, Richard Lee's beast principles and in beast principles in Wing Chun Kung Fu, how difficult would it be to designed the motion of these beasts into techniques, against kicks, punches, etc. for each beast?
Do not know if this has ever been brought up or not but Ed Parker's 2nd book, Secrets of Chinese Karate has some interesting stuff in it. Pg.29 speaks of Chuan Shu while pg. 37 there is mention of an art Shou-pu, if you put them both together, well you get my point. It seems like L1 is speaking from past knowledge so you or anyone else tell me if this is mere coincidence.
The question is not what I see or know, the question is what we are told, and many times in my field, the truth lies in information that is not introduced.
Question, If you were a actor, but no one had heard of you but you have worked with Harrison Ford, Jean-Claude Van Damme; Tommy Lee Jones, would you not list this information on your resume. But you decided to list a unknown producer from a distance land as your mentor. Even if it was true, the question would be why did you not list the local well known actors that know your qualifications? So at least one could confirm your information.
I read on a Shou Shu post from the Weaver's that Mr. Moore was good friends with Mr. Chuck Norris, he's a great guy, if contacted and the information is true to form, I am sure he would verify the story of Shou Shu. This would lay any doubts to rest, and a great marketing move. Just one verification from any of the martial artists listed above that know the Moore's would lay to rest the question of Shou Shu.
Gentlemen-
It is clearly obvious that Shou Shu was created by Mr. Moore in the backwoods of Fresno. He applied Kempo, white Crane, Karate, and some bar room brallin methodologies to create this art. Now that said, I have a major problem with the company as they are telling a lie. Good news is that, the younger students are catching on ( thanks to the internet) 20 yrs ago Mr. Moore could fool the small town folks of Fresno, and Tracy but today. Now that said, even though the history is bogus, the art itself is actually decent and has some real application if studeied and coupled with a basic understanding of martial arts.
Or maybe they left out the fact that they studied Kenpo out of fear that new students would think Shou Shu is just a rip off of Kenpo. Tho I'm sure thats what you all think, which is fine by me.
@ MADMAX I never said shou shu is a ripoff of Kenpo. I am only trying to state the hisotry told by Al Moore is a 100% pure bullshit. I bet you he never even travelled to china. this is can be proven by pulling his passport info.
I've seen pics of him and Da Shifu Clark in china.
True, his students paid for his trip to China where he had claimed to have trained in the late 1940's. Research Northern China's history 1945 to 1950,
Found on Wikipedia.
Japanese Army Second Sino-Japanese War (July 7, 1937 – September 9, 1945) and during the Chinese Civil War On January 12 1949, the communists cleared all 18 nationalist strongholds outside the city, and the defenders were forced to take refuge behind the city wall. After the nationalists behind the city wall had refused to surrender for three times when asked, the communists launched their final offensive on the city on January 14, 1949 at 10:00 AM. After 29 hours of fierce fighting, the entire besieged nationalist garrison of the city totaling more than 130,000 was completely annihilated Tianjin Campaign.
you tube contains some great film on life in China during this period (see Chinese civil war) shows Japanese occupied areas. Film shows executions of the communists by the Nationalists in the streets of Tian jin during this period.
Albert Fred Moore Sr Feb 28,1926; this would be at the age of 22 training in Tian jin China for two and a half uninterrupted years.
History says, Highly unlikely.
Historic note!
Pingjin Campaign known as the Battle of Pingjin to the Nationalist Government, was part of the three major campaigns launched by the People's Liberation Army during the late stage of the Chinese Civil War. It began on November 29, 1948, and ended on January 31, 1949, lasted a total of 64 days. This campaign is one of the three campaigns that marked the end of nationalist dominance in northern China. The term Pingjin refers to the cities Beiping and Tianjin.
The city name changed to Tianjin after 1949, to find it's history (Battle of Pingjin) or Pingjin Campaign. According to the time frame in Mr Moore's interview this would have occurred during his stay in China, right after the war.
Yes, we now have the lineage police. Like we need any more nanny organisations or people who think people are to stupid to figure things out for themselves. I think I'll go practice my Shou Shu in case I run into any of these ruffians.
Removed from Wikipedia by Administration.
After review at 01:51, 20 December 2010 Phantomsteve (talk | contribs) deleted "Shou Shu" ? (A7: Article about a group or club, which does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject.
Wikipedia by Administration
Should have listed code.
The criteria include pages that contain nonsense, copyright violations and articles that do not satisfy notability guidelines. When deleting these, administrators often leave short codes in the deletion summary instead of typing out a full reason, such as "A7" for articles that do not satisfy notability!
Awesome shoes for Shou Shu????
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth; that is, whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source
If no reliable third-party sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it, and will be deleted.
The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed. It has always been good practice to make reasonable efforts to find sources yourself that support such material, and cite them.
Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional, or which rely heavily on rumor and personal opinion. Questionable sources should be used only as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves.
Find three reliable sources other than the Shou Shu organization and Wikipedia will restore the article. These sources should be listed here, which would allow the readers to conduct personal research.
Why does no one have any respect anymore ? The last few comments I had read blew me away , you have no respect for what Al moore loved , what his life was . I grew up listening to my grandfather speak of what a good man he was Lucky for me I had the chance to meet him before he passed so , for you to sit here and degrate his name as you do with this garbage . As for new student ( not all just those that you speak of ) we know how our youth is quite impressionable now a days .... they have no mind of thier own ...... let alone a brain in thier heads ( again not all ) . I proud of what moores is and stands for . Its my roots , its the one thing that of my grandfathers history I can share and I will do the same with my children as my mom did with me . Your beliefs are your beliefs but let Da' shifu rest in peace with out destroying his name , If you must at least do it tastefully
sho shu rocks
With all the animosity here between obvious old acquaintances, it seems everyone is missing the point. If anyone is interested in Shou' Shu' please go to www.mooresmartialarts.com, find a school near you and go talk to a student to find out their opinion of the art. I have studied 3 other arts but nothing has amazed me like Moore's. Its an eye opener! Action not words! -Salute!
To be 100% honest, I am VERY happy with what I have learned thus far in SHOU SHU. I train in HEI LONG Shou Shu and I really enjoy the atmosphere and teachings. The school is in Hilltop, Richmond Ca. Shun Shifu V is a great teacher and I am excited to continue up the ranks. I've trained and studied various techniques and visited many schools. I know what a good, practical self-defense school should consist of and many out there are "let-downs" to say the least. SHOU SHU SCHOOLS ARE OPEN EVERY DAY!!!! Other places aren't so devoted. Just one OBVIOUS THUMB UP. Backed by another thumb up for making sure the assailant actually commits the attack in a lifelike nature... Bare Knuckles, weapons, fitness, hardcore body vs body training, kata and much much more. Its nice to have a school with a great instructor that has classes every day. None of this two day per week stuff. I like the posts here and hope to get involved in the future. PEACE!
I saw some mention of Joe Lewis and Mr Mullins
( I thought his name was Chris...been a long long time though) above. I had the pleasure of meeting them both in Oklahoma of all places. I don't know much about them but I can tell you Joe Lewis is flat Amazing! It was an American Freestyle karate school and I learned a ton on his visit to the school. Eddie Wilcoxin was and probably still is the head intructor there. That school is the only one in my limited experience that compared with Shou Shu. Shou Shu has how many schools? and they are ALL top notch. I've been involved with various martial art's over the last 30 years and ran my own school(Tae Kwon Do) for 7 of those. I choose Shou Shu for me and I don't give a rip about it's history or where it may be derived from. I have taken all of the martial arts that I have been involved with and I use a little of each. Shou Shu gives me better focus though I can tell you that. and quality control...That's VERY important. You don't get to "put in your time" or "Pay your money" and recieve your Black Belt. You gotta EARN it and Show it in front of those who have had to do the same. Man I like that. I don't have mine is Shou Shu yet...I will. I eaned my other ranks as well and so did my students but I think the Shou Shu Black Belt will be the one I am most proud of....When I get there.
Shun Shifu, who is this Shifu to the left of Sr?
International Shou Shu Association. Sounds important.
Definition of international, relating to, or involving two or more nations, What other nations can Shou Shu schools under (Shou Shu International banner) be found?
How many schools make up Shou Shu international, 100. 50,15,5,3?
Two and only located in the states!
Check out-Two years of shou Shu @ bullshido.net
www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27331
Yellow Belt | International Shou Shu Association (Blog)
He utilized the teaching ideas of Kenpo. The main thing that he borrowed from Kenpo was the idea of teaching in techniques. Techniques we not utilized at all by his teachers. There were the animal forms which contained techniques but as I understand it these were only used once a student had mastered the motions. In other words, students would only learn one small motion and were expected to perfect that motion. The next day they would be given another. Progressive weapons was something that was reserved for much later.
Personally I really see the benefit in that teaching style. It produced extremely high quality Shifus. It just didn't produce very many. Da' Shifu tried to teach this way for many years but could not keep any students. It required a great deal of discipline on the students part to persist in this environment. In addition to discipline it required tremendous trust. In other words it just didn't fit into our culture.
So in the early 70's the martial arts craze hit. There were a number of teachers making a great deal of money. Yet Da' Shifu couldn't seem to keep a single student. He decided to figure out why. So he joined up with the Tracy Brothers.
Hope that answers your question SSW
Interesting by your time frame is off.
The Moore's were some of the first Black belts under the tracy's and Richard Lee's in the 60's, they started learning techniques in the early to mid 60's
EAST-WEST BOK FU DO Hall of fame Al Moore (1960's)only 4
Your statement above about having no techniques in shou shu contradicts Mr Moore own words in his news-interview.
HN: The style that you teach, your techniques and your katas and so forth--are these things that you designed, or these things that you learned and adapted? In other words, how did you set up your program?
Da Shifu: Well, it was very difficult. If you are studying from a Da Shifu, which I did , then the movements of the beasts are all blended together. In China they were separated as individual beasts. Some of the techniques are original techniques that I learned from other Da Shifu’s and some were blendings of techniques that I felt should be put into the art.
So his teachers used (ORIGINAL) techniques, this now throws out the reason for teaming up with the Tracy's, and really throws a wrench in the whole story. Please help us to understand.
The Tracy's website lists the Shaolin (Wong Family) Hand Set. I learned this hand set in Shou Shu, a kenpo off shoot. I was wondering if anyone knew when it became a kenpo kata. I suspect maybe it came from Professor Chow, but that is just a guess or maybe from the Hung Gar Wong family. Anybody know?
?????
HN: How about your family--when did you start teaching them?
Da Shifu: I started teaching my brothers when I was learning. I would come home and teach them in the evening. I took a lesson every day and then I would come home and work with my brothers.
HN: So they more or less learned right along with you. Are you the oldest?
Da Shifu: Yes, I am the oldest.
In the artical Mr Moore said he started at the age of 13.
Albert F Moore Born feb 2 1926 fresno
Vernon Moore Born May 20 1936 Alameda
Ralph V Moore Born Nov 11 1939 Alameda
Do the Math
i know alot about sho shu kung fu i take classes every tuesday and thursday it is really fun they teach you to scrape there iballs out of there head and if your a kid take sho shu it can hurt people when there trying to kidnap you so if you want to defend yourself take sho shu kung fu
whas the difference between north and south shou shu
idk ask ss weaer maybe he knows he has been in the system along time
Old School.
Talked with Al Tracy (Tracy's kenpo) and Steve Labounty, (First with Ed Parker Chinese Kenpo then American Kenpo) years ago, both told me the same story,
Moore,s learned from them then started their own system.
Both are still around and easy to contact. They said if Al trained in China he never said enything to any of them over the many years he studied under them.
San Jose Kenpo Karate Discussion Board December 13 2004
Has anyone heard of Al Moore and his schools of Shou Shu in California. It is my understanding he started in the tracy's system back in the early 60's.
Steve
Re: Has anyone heard of Al Moore December 13 2004, 12:26 PM
Boy, you really are taking me back a ways. Al Moore Sr. and Jr. were students of Bob Blackmore back around ’67-’68. Blackmore was a student of Hugh Alford at the old San Jose School. The Moore’s were never around the San Jose dojo, which, given the high level of violent and insane behavior at that nuthouse of a dojo, may not have been a bad thing. They studied at Alford’s dojo in the Concord/Walnut Creek area and in the late 60’s either purchased the school from Alford or opened their own. Though what they taught had it’s base in Tracy Kenpo, it was their own adulterant version of the art which they called Shou Shu. I do not know what has become of them, although I had heard that Sr. passed away.
Ted Sumner
Thank You Ted.
I heard that AL Sr. passed away a few years ago. Moores seem to have about 15 school through out California. Some people say that AL Sr. trained in China after WWII for a period of time. Do you know if that is true?
Not to my knowledge! December 13 2004, 4:12 PM
I have never heard anything to that effect. They pretty much looked like average beginners when they started.
Ted Sumner
Thank you Ted.
I had heard that Al Moore Sr. got the material that he altered his kempo with from the group that studied with Dacoscas and others at the Arthur Murray Dance School way back when. Never heard about any trips to China though.
Gene
Al Dacascos complete martial.com
The reality of having his own students set in and the need to improve his communication skills took precedence. Dacascos moved to California in 1965. Running a school came by trial and error as there were no formal systems anywhere in the US to teach the skills of running a martial arts business until 1967. Eventually, Dacascos was recruited into the Tracy system, a strategic alliance that helped to form the cornerstone of his business organizational skills.
During this time, Dacascos became involved with a group of Chinese martial artists in San Francisco. This exchange of techniques between instructors began to reshape his feelings about his own martial art. By 1969 he had told Professor Emperado that he could no longer call his art Kajukenbo. Instead he wished to develop a style of his own, Wun Hop Kuen Do, which means ?he way of the combined fist.?
Where have you heard this before?
The 1940 US censes will be released in April 2012, these public records will show where the Moore family lived, went to school, age etc. Eleven months and counting. Highly doubtful it was Emeryville as Mr Moore claims in the 1976 newspaper interview.
I Found A newspaper Ad for Moore's Karate and Judo in the August 30 1970 Newspaper Name ( The Argus)
Fremont Ca / Hayward Locations. On the Ad it said (Moore's Karate Member of the N.C.K.K.A.)
Little History on the NCKKA found at www.austinkenpokarate.com under school linage Stephen Labounty 1942
Sigung Stephen LaBounty began his martial arts training in 1958 at a Judo school in Forth Worth, Texas. After earning his brown belt in 1961, Mr. LaBounty traveled to San Francisco and began looking for a Judo school to continue his training. He found three karate schools in the phone book and figured they could point him the right direction, however after observing a kenpo class at the Ocean Avenue Tracy Kenpo school, he was hooked. LaBounty began his Kenpo training under Steve Fox, moved through the ranks rather quickly and began competing in the tournament circuit, where he is recognized as an international fighting champion. In 1969, Mr. LaBounty formed the National Chinese Kenpo Karate Association (NCKKA). Currently a 9th degree black belt, LaBounty is active as a Law Enforcement Self-Defense Consultant and is widely sought after on the seminar circuit.
This ad put's the Moore's directly under the leadership of Mr Labounty in August 1970
Same ad found in The Daily Review 11 Sept 1970 Hayward Ca. Ancestry.com Newspaper search (Moore's Karate) This shows the Moore's already had a numbers schools teaching techniques in 1970's Question where are the black belts and students from this period. in 1976 Ronald Kandler ran one of these schools. Found under DBA Moore's Karate. Argus newspaper 1976
Ron Kandler ran the Newark Ca, school in 1976.
Martial Artist from the Moore's past had no knowledge of any prior tanning they had before Chinese Kenpo.
Al Tracy, Richard Lee, Steve La bounty. Records show only rank of 1 degree black belts for the Moore's. This would explain why the Shou Shu leaders say that until after black belt you basically have Chinese Kenpo. And why the rest of the belts are so hidden from the public. For a (Pure Art) the advance belts sure has change a lot over the years)
does anyone knw the difference in north and south shou' shu i wanna know which is the best one
The main difference between northern and southern styles of (Chinese martial arts) are that the northern styles tend to emphasize fast and powerful kicks, high jumps and generally fluid and rapid movement, while the southern styles focus more on strong arm and hand techniques, and stable, immovable stances and fast footwork.
The difference between northern and southern martial arts was due to the weather, Northern China was and is very cold, heavy cloth had to be worn. Hard ground supplied a firm foundation. Southern China Ying Yang, the opposite. What worked in one part of the country would not work (As Well) in the other. The Chinese warlords paid traitors (Chinese Martial artists) very well to share their technique. All martial arts have been mixed and matched for common sense reasons from the beginning.
Old School
I believe he is asking about the Moore's and their Shou Shu. The Northern and Southern organizational division and subsequent divergence in curriculum and teaching of body mechanics. Of course I could be wrong.
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The kenponet: Family tree (Full index) Richard Lee a.k.a. Richard Cuvelier
It's all shou shou, north or south bs is just the two different systems sheng chi witch Is formed from ppl that left the original system or kicked out due to business practices , if u care about YOUR martial art forget the bs and just train hard and make it part of u , that when u will know ur a true martial artist ss wever hasn't been part of the original system in a long time, but he a good teacher none the less
I can't get enough of Hei Long Shou Shu Kung Fu. Before I moved to the Richmond area I trained in various styles, mma, muay thai, jkd, shou shu, wing chun, tae kuk mu sul, taekwondo, and some wrestling in high school. Not a master of any of these systems or styles yet I have had the privilege of learning and studying each one to a certain degree. Each school/kwoon/dojo/gym I have gone to has had a certain feel, energy and path of training to achieve whatever the unique yet related goal each individual martial artist may have. Personally, if I don't feel the energy/chi/ki level in a school, I normally won't stay around very long. "Kinda like surfing with NO WAVES". You feel me? I have been at the Hei Long Shou Shu Kung Fu Kwoon in Richmond for a while now and the energy level has actually grown even more since the first day I came in. I have had the opportunity to FEEL myself grow in a number of ways inside and out. To see fresh students walk in knowing very little about martial arts, self-defense, FIGHTING, and the difference within, and seeing them grow slowly being formed into confident,upright, AWESOME individuals is one of the greatest gems available. I enjoy training 5 days per week and not every school is available for that extent of training. If there is ones available, is there instruction, how much is it, and is it practical? What are the attitudes and morals of the people attending it? Is it enjoyable? Is the head instructor likable? Is it clicky? Is the Grandmaster CRUEL,RUDE,better than everybody on earth? How are the children taught? Is fitness a part of the curriculum? Is peace and meditation introduced as means of balance and focus? Are people bullied, used as punching bags and discarded at any given rate? I have checked into these things with each place I've went. How about prejudice? Is the school clean? The list goes on and on.... HEI LONG SHOU SHU IS SATISFYING AND WORTH EVERY PENNY, DRIP OF SWEAT AND DROP OF BLOOD. THE RICHMOND KWOON INSIDE THE MALL IS AWESOME. CHECK IT OUT.
I'll toss my opinion, based on direct observation and also on previous research (and do note, i do research).
The founder, Al Moore Sr, is deceased. A great man for achieving as much as he did in his life. I generally hold to a policy of not talking ill of the dead. I will speak of what he has stated and of the information i have been able to obtain.
He and his son studied Ed Parker's kenpo w/Bob Blackmore in the late sixties. By all counts he was a beginner when he walked in the door, which brings contradiction to the claims he studied in China shortly after WWII. He was also noted as an average student and studied for only a few years before he either bought out the school in Walnut Creek or created his own. He later presented the system called shou shu, which looks remarkably like Ed Parker's kenpo, including the forms. Basically, it is argued that shou shu is an 'adulterated' offshoot of kenpo.
It is rumored he studied at the Arthur Murray dance studio (not for dance) with Dacascos and a few others, but this rumor was not substantiated. I.e., Dacascos and others of the time did not substantiate the claim. This is likely either because they didn't want to get involved with the witchhunt, or they simply did not remember him... which says volumes in and of itself. But, then again, that's what rumors do, right?
Continuing...
The interview listed here http://www.mooreschinesemartialarts.com/about/new_ present a gross ignorance of China (which he claims to have studied at), the martial arts of China in general, and many other aspects. For a 'master' to state such things is, at the very least, disturbing. At the most likely, revealing.
He states such things as kung fu being Cantonese and shou shu being Mandarin. that they are sister arts and the mother of all other systems. Hello...
Note that in his article (page 4) he stated he never studied any other karate. Kenpo, at the time... was called kenpo karate. Sort of what they call it now, eh? Entertaining too, because on page 3 he said he had a black belt in kempo (i assume the same), as well as a black belt in judo and ju jutsu.
Which brings me to quote a particular paragraph from that article:
Quote:
HN: Do you hold any black belts in any other types of martial arts?
Da Shifu (Al Moore): Yes, i have them in Kempo, Ju Jit Su, and Judo. I also have honorary belts that i have been awarded in other systems. Taking the test would have been easy. They wanted to be able to say that i had a rank in their system, so they wanted me to have it.
*bling* *bling* *bling*
Moving on...
Now here's the interesting part. In a matter of 8 years or so, he had over 30 instructors... and i think 12 schools (memory is sketchy on that part). A good businessman, to say the least.
I have read that they claim their system is a 'core' system and that its origins reach as far back as Egyptian times. They state that a forefather system is kalaripayit. However, kalaripayit's applications and approaches are 'nothing' like any of shou shu's animals.
Indeed, if i may be so bold, the animals in shou shu do not approach, or even appropriately emulate, 'any' Chinese system's animals. You would think there would be 'some' similarities, eh? After all, did they not all originate from India (kalaripayit)? Or, even if they did and the animal concepts were not created in India, but later in China, would they not be similar to the animal styles in China?
Btw, just to toss out a point of contention to the claims of shou shu coming from China, but having been a 'secret' system (the long-stated argument as to why there is no indication of lineage or any information 'anywhere' in China regarding this particular art), does not hold well with my knowledge of China's history (as it pertains to the martial arts) and the way in which such things as 'animal styles' and other 'flowery' concepts came to being. I.e., they were primarily birthed due to marketing purposes, by masters to gain attention of nobles and wealthy merchants. For to be retained by one of wealthy, meant to be retained for life (in most cases). Therefore, to compete for employment (essentially), they presented 'interesting' and 'flowery' factors into their systems.
Interesting how marketing then is still marketing now, except now it's on the big screen.
Some of the things that bothered me are that many of the students, in discussions and in person, have displayed a 'bar room brawler' mentality, which falls into the 'opportunist' picture and conflicts heavily with my belief in how the arts are to be studied. I.e., not as a means to take advantage of drunk people, but as a means to develop oneself, whilst along the way gaining the ability to save yourself, or another, from serious harm if need arises. So, basically, it seems with all the elements of animals... they are missing an element of 'spirit.'
There's more on Moore's system, but i would have to redo my research to get grittier details, as most of this i pulled out of my memory. Hope what i provided has helped.
Great big yawn. You don't know anything about Shou Shu 'cause you never trained in it. Granted, there's been a hell of a lot of words written by outsiders--sickening attacks on the late Da Shifu Senior, all by folks who never had the privilege to study with the man or his students--and we were all his students, regardless of rank. I guess that's what's driving you crazy--you have no idea of the level of respect he inspired in us lucky enough to get a lesson from him. You'll always be an outsider looking in.
Sorry, but most of this information comes from insiders that have made the phone calls and have done the research. Please do the same then post right here what you are told by Richard Lee, Al Tracy,Steve Labounty.
First hand knowledge is always the best way to go.
I could care less--honestly, this so over the top boring, I'm done with this site. Good luck yammering into the wind.
Mr Moore's 1976 Interview, All students should print this for their records. the true history right from Da Shifu Al Moore found at>>>
Talk:Shou Shu?? - goo Wikipedia (???????)
Sorry, Interview at
Hello Whoever you are, What is this "Conquer and Divide" attitude you portray? Was Al Moore Sr. your enemy? He's not here to answer your questions, and I am truly sorry about that.He listened to his teachers and studied many styles of Martial arts, the reason being " Learn what your enemy knows, listen to them when they talk to you and keep your knowledge to yourself and in the end you will know what they know and what you know, but they will only know what they know" I have studied under different people and for just that reason have never revealed my background to them, except once with Mr. Reyes about 1970 at Travis AFB, ca and he punched me during a lesson, literally knocked me into the students behind me... lesson learned. So, there is a reason he did not reveal his background to everyone. I'm sorry you were on the outs with him, He was truly a remarkable person, had great wisdom, and is dearly missed by all who knew and loved him, and were loved by him .I suggest you get over your little vendettas and quite possibly you could be a little more like him...love is more powerful than hate.
And Truth, in Place of Deceit.
Men who Know!
Al Tracy-Tracy Kenpo-Instructor
Steve LaBounty, American Kenpo-Instructor
Richard Lee- Bok Fu- Instructor
Robert Ito- White Tiger Kung Fu- Fellow Student with the Moore's under Richard Lee
All students should complete their research, It's what adults do.
The best articles to see if Al Moore could have trained in Tianjin China seven days a week eight hours a day between 1946 and 1949 at the age of 20 / 22 as he claimed in the interview is to study the history of Tainjin China during this period of history.
Pingjin Campaign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Tianjin
?Chinese Civil War?? - YouTube
?Chinese Civil War 1946 49?? - YouTube
http://www.thecurrencycollector.com/pdfs/The_Money
Found at the link above
give it a rest will ya......SHEEEEEESH!!!! you have been whining about this for years...get a life
Wrong, but I have found many different people, even Shou Shu black belts who over the years have found the same answers to these questions. Even one Black Belt teacher that went to Tainjin to teach English. If you take time to study studyTianjin China, and still believe Mr Moore studied there 8 hr's a day seven day's a week during 1947 to 1949 then, SHEEEEEEE!!!! get a brain.
Notice the Parker Kenpo Flame patches on the Gi.
This 1976 Interview should be listed on every Shou Shu web page. A treasure of information for research, and the only first hand interview from a Shou Shu master here in the US or in China. A piece of History.
LOL!
You can find the interviewer Gerry Catanzarite advertising his or hers photography / filmmaking shop
1819 E Dakota ave Fresno Ca listed on page five under Fresno Datsun ad. 6 Min away from 4585 E Simpson Ave Fresno Ca, Moore's karate. Probably a student or friend of a student.
Gerry Catanzarite ad is on page five of the interview, under the Datsun ad.
Really. Who cares?
There is so much crap about "where it came from" "is it real"
What's important is if it works? You could tell me that the girl scouts made this stuff up and I would still be as passionate about it as I am. Shou Shu is truly amazing. People should put as much time into training in the art as they do trying to discredit it. If you want some art that you can trace it's lineage all the way back to when it started, then get on with your bad self. But for me, WHO CARES?! Shou Shu works.
Really. Who cares?
There is so much crap about "where it came from" "is it real"
What's important is if it works? You could tell me that the girl scouts made this stuff up and I would still be as passionate about it as I am. Shou Shu is truly amazing. People should put as much time into training in the art as they do trying to discredit it. If you want some art that you can trace it's lineage all the way back to when it started, then get on with your bad self. But for me, WHO CARES?! Shou Shu works.
Sounds like a tap-out!
I know it works, not the point!
Not a Tap out...I agree with "who cares"...Who friggn cares about your story...research or whatever. You have put some time into this. What is your expected result? What is it you are driving for? Maybe I missed that in all these posts. It seems to me that you are attempting to drive students away. It isn't going to happen. You are wasting your time here. I am another who doesn't give a rats behind where it comes from..It works it's effective..bottom line. What else really matters? It's my butt on the line out there when/if an altercation occurs. Shou Shu training is what I want. I have a couple of decades of training in various martial arts. Never cared where any of them originated either. Only cared about the effectiveness and the ability of the instructor to train me. Selfish perhaps but again...it's my butt on the line or perhaps my family. I choose Shou Shu. I've read the article...again it wouldn't matter to me if it verified as absolute truth or de-bunked as complete fiction. Right now...today. Shou Shu is the training I want.
Get a clue, I agree, it works my training in Shou Shu has been great. I don't want anybody to quit. Just know your linage- Chow-Parker-Tracy-Richard Lee-Moore's. A lot of the beast techniques are made up but work, so what the heck. Don't ever quit. Article already been De-bunked. Pretty silly if you know history. And if you really don't want to embarrass yourself please don't talk about are teachings about the different (beasts) to martial artists that know the animal styles, but this won't happen if we keep it a secret like we promise.
I have to say that I have never heard my instructor say a single thing about the history of shou shu or where it comes from. I have read about it...I have seen the posts here but never a word from my current teacher. Too busy training. Maybe it's something not mentioned anymore. Maybe he is like me and really doesn't see the point. My prior training has included Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, Shotokan, Shorin Ryu and Shou Shu. (a few others too) While in the Military I moved lots and so did the instructors. A few of them would want the students to learn about the history of martial arts in general. I enjoyed some of that but failed to see it's application to my self defense needs. Maybe I missed something but I still see it as only something that might be entertaining or perhaps of intellectual value. Same here. I just don't see the point of all of this. It has been entertaining though so maybe that's it. Knowing your lineage is of interest when it's required as testing material or when you want to credit an included instructor. Tae Kwon Do wanted me to speak and be able to teach class in Korean. Shorin Ryu was big on the lineage thing for testing. I got around the Korean requirement for Dan ranking...I am NOT going to teach at the Kukkiwon in Korea lol. Grand Master Ung Young Kim let me slide. Joe Lewis didn't care too much about his students learning the history of Shotokan when I met him in Oklahoma. American Freestyle was what I was learning there with a basis in Shotokan. I looked up to both of those world renowned martial artists as examples of what I wanted to achieve so perhaps this had an influence on why I fail to see the reasoning behind all of these posts attacking the history of shou shu. This is not to say THEY had no interest but it was never pushed on me...mentioned but not pushed...But hey...I cared enough to comment right. Your argument will likely be that the history they pushed was proven and accurate....My argument though is that it wouldnt have mattered to me either way. Truth or fiction the martial art works. All of them do. I find Shou Shu to be more effective for me however regardless of it's history and those who created it. If Da Shifu Moore created it on his own from things he picked up along the way well...that would actualy be even better in my eyes. What a genius to be able to do that so effectively. If he intended the history in said newspaper article as a marketing ploy...I'm ok with that too. If everything he said in that article is true I'm good with that as well. Now lets go train some more.
Your cool with anything. The story is fake, the art is kempo, white crane kung fu mix and a lot of made up (Beast technique) Im cool with that because that is what it is. But it works. Your argument fits mine, why did he have to make this story up. And there is no doubt it's made up. Sorry but this says alot about a person. My guess the story started and just got out of hand over the years. All good just know your history.
Now lets go train some more.
Mr Moore did not come up with the concepts and principles, he learned them from his (Known) instructors. Motion is motion when understood. Shou Shu title is Mr Moore, as Bok Fu is to Richard Lee, American Kenpo is to Mr Parker.
ALL GOOD.
The story is bull, Da shifu Moore said he had a lesson every day then came home and taught his brothers. I did the math. Brothers were 1 and three at the time Shifu Moore was 13. As they say facts or facts. Hey it's Shifu Bass guitar Player, the Rats ass line gave it away.
God Bless & Salute
A musician cool! Me too. Come check out a show sometime. RocKHaven is the band name :-)
Requirements for (All) respectable Kenpo schools is in the Brown Belt level is to create your own 20 technique form, written with all explanations of motion (both sides), body reaction (both sides), theme etc, to show if understand motion and the science of. Search (American Kenpo Brown and Black belt thesis)Not genius just understanding.
Can we go back to talking about shou shu and not any more bs here, screw the history already I don't think anyone really cares about beside u and u keyboard
Can we go back to talking about shou shu and not any more bs here, screw the history already I don't think anyone really cares about beside u and u keyboard
Gentlemen-
I said it once, I will say it again
It is clearly obvious that Shou Shu was created by Mr. Moore in the backwoods of Fresno. He applied Kempo, white Crane, Karate, and some bar room brallin methodologies to create this art. Now that said, I have a major problem with the company as they are telling a lie. Good news is that, the younger students are catching on ( thanks to the internet) 20 yrs ago Mr. Moore could fool the small town folks of Fresno, and Tracy but today. Now that said, even though the history is bogus, the art itself is actually decent and has some real application if studeied and coupled with a basic understanding of martial arts. It's a solid art, I just wish Jung Moon would come clean and put out a press release, citing the real history of the Art.
And I wish you'd say that to Jung Moon's face.
I would like witness u say that to Jung moon, That would be entertaining i wonder what shun Shifu clark would say about it
Why, he already knows! Let him tell the story of Shou Shu to Mr Steve LaBounty that would be a gas!! Love to have that on You Tube. Steve was one of Jung Moon (Al JR) instructors.
How can you say they made it up most of the style came from china and India the mantis the moores teach is seven star from china the mongoose is from India and the mongoose has moved to the philipenos and is called maw shu tiger system learned from china but dashifu senior perfected it and made it better who cares if he took some techniques from kempo Thomas Edison got ideas on the light bulb from nicola tesla doesn't mean his light bulb is down graded now so relax it's and individual art all it's own not a run off of kemp
Ok for the record I my self have studied sho shu and i have been banded from all school locations. Why? because I asked ? about the art. I have studied in china for 5 years and can speak it very well. I have all so studied American Kenpo and Tracy Kenpo, and when Al tracy and sigun LaBonty say they taught Al Moore it is true. The whole hype of sho shu and its back ground is nothing more then a maketing tool.I have been teaching the Kenpo Arts for over 15 years and been in the MA for 25 years now. And its funny how sho shu is only in CA centeral vally and no were else. If it was a " ture angent chines" Art would it not be all over the world by now. I mean come on American Kenpo was brought to the states in the 50's and its known world wide. Sr GM Ed Parker was a brillaint man so if Al Moore was so greate why isn't he known all over the world. And if sho shu is such a pratical art why dont you see any of its instrutors or students at tourniments like the IKC or NBL's. Why dont you cause its nothing more then a marketing art that is all it is. Like I said I studied this so called art and its a watered down version of Kenpo. A few years ago I was living in my home town of fresno and I whent into 2 diffrent "Moore's Sho Shu" shcool's One on Blackstone and Sierra and the other on Clovis Ave, I took a "entroductive lession" And when I put the head instructor on back I was told not to come back this was before the fact I had mentioned I studied directly under Al Moore Sr. and was a 5th degree black belt in American Kenpo. Sho Shu Students are nothing more then want a be kenpoist.
I don't know..but...something just says "BULLSH&^T" to me on your account professor. Maybe it's just me though.....I have as much experience as you do in many different martial arts. Not by choice mind you...Moved lots while on active duty. For you to say that Shou Shu students are just a wannabe kenpoist or that Shou Shu is just a marketing art....That's just not something an experience martial artist would say regardless of your point of view on it's history. I think this is just a flaming troll post.
Shou Shu is an art made by Al Moore Sr. Al Moore sr did indeed study kenpo and these other arts that are listed. However, while some of the techniques follow the same sequence as kenpo it is not based on kenpo motions. Al Moore Sr. and Ralph Moore developed their own unique style by applying physics to their martial arts. Concepts such as the center line, sinking and surging were developed and practiced for years before they taught it to their own students. What they developed are known to shou shu students as principles. Yes the mantis set is the bung bo set which is done in other styles, however it does not follow the same rules. The tiger set done in shou shu wont be found anywhere else as well. While other styles may consider shou shu students having bad form in their tiger form is actually more powerful. In other styles tiger claws and tiger weapons are extended, in shou shu tiger claws are circular and they stay close to the persons center of gravity in order to gain more power. Al Moore took what he knew and he developed it into what is more useful in a fight situation. Forms and katas are nice in shou shu but they really aren't for exhibition at a competition. Katas are to develop stances, form, and weapons. Only someone else who has experience in shou shu can tell if a form is being done correctly in shou shu. A judge wouldn't be able to know what is being done or even have a clue when watching a student do forms. As for sparring there are alot of rumors. I am not aware of which are true and which are correct. What I do know is that sparring in competitions isnt real fighting which would explain why many Moore's students nowadays do not compete. Shou Shu should "NOT" be for competitions. It shouldnt be diluted and changed to a competitional art. Shou SHu is for real life situations. It is not to have people applaud you and say how pretty you move. As for northern and southern shou shu, there is none. It is all shou shu. The so call northern and southern shou shu differences are just technical. Part of the big argument is the argument over the floating foot. Northern shou shu students do it one way, southern another.
One question for those of you who know what I am talking about; Who would a father teach all his knowledge to? To his son who will carry out his name and will be his heir? Or to his number one student and employee who happens to be close to him? Will the father pass all his knowledge to his son or to his student?
cobra are u an active student in moores
No. I am no longer in Moore's.
Take a look at Brian's Kenpo Page - search Kenpo Terminology or just get Ed parkers Encyclopedia of Kenpo contains over 1000 terms used in the martial arts. to sink is to settle or known as the Parker stomp, to surg is it's ying to yang buoyancy to launch or catapulting after the sink.
I've studied these kenpo terms, I've studied kenpo. It's just not the same. These movements were modified. We learn to sink and surge like kenpo, but the advance form of sinking and surging in shou shu just does not look the same as in kenpo.
R u Ron john?
How long have you been away from moore's
SO ? figures Cobra is R.J. (6th)- Could be, and if so..... some of my BEST lessons from Brown to Black!! *FULL SALUTE*
BTW-? whoever you ? are, Clovis Power!
How long ago did unlearn from rj?R
First of all, that would be "How long ago did I LEARN from SHI GUNG?...I was not his personal friend, I was one of his students. He was still a 3rd when I 1st met him and I had many,many lessons, group, seminar & camps from this knowledgeable & highly talented martial artist up until the time he was awarded his 6th. Hardcore Master, he always demanded perfection & willingly shared great principles & concepts.
Are you still active in moore's ?
? ARE YOU ?
Absolutely!
I'm not shi han ron john
Who are you then cobra
Are there more than two 6th degrees who have left Moores? ShiGung RJ, ShiGung Amata and who else?
excuses me shifu Weaver i Have A Question why dont you ever talk about Al Moore 2nd why do you never credit him in the style? not to be rude but im just wondering didnt he invent the cobra material you still teach?
not that i am aware of i only know of those two leaving the system as sixth's
THERE ARE MANY 5ths: MANY BAD A$$ "ANIMAL GUYS" HAVE BEEN FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HAVE GOTTEN LESSONS FROM JUST ABOUT ALL OF THEM.
Also, Mr. Montgomery, you probably have not been around the Shou Shu circle long enough to understand the "geographic" differences, longitudinal speaking of course, that creates the great division of this FAMILY (Moore's)! art.
The other 6th was perrini. Indeed Al Moore II invented cobra. Al Moore II also invented the tiger crunch
And those who say Clark learned all his beasts from Al Moore Sr. are lying or don't know what they are talking about. Al Moore II taught Clark the cobra he developed.
I knew ppl that were around when that was invented at camp. It's interesting that this is openly discussed now and very fortunate I feel. So Cobra out of curiosity do you know how many Dragons are out there: Clark, Martin, Seigfried, Smith, Parkins are there any others? Also what the heck happened to the old 3rd brown ??
Al Moore II, Ralph Moore, Parkins, Freier, Smith, Siegfried, and Clark. As far as I know Clar only obtained his 7th degree. He was never awarded the title of Da Shifu. I am not sure how Martin can be a Dragon. Last I heard of him he was still a 5th. From what I know he gave himself the self title of Da Shifu. Another self proclaimed Da Shifu is McNabney. At the time of his departure he was a 4th. He indeed might have traveled to china and learned the other 2 animals. Yet the animals he learned which were mantis and dragon are not the same as Al Moore Sr.'s beasts. The cobra material is not obtainable anywhere else except in the Moore's Shou Shu system. Even the cobra taught by the ISSA is just a basic form of the cobra. Not trying to diminish anyone but if we consider the facts we can obviously see that Al Moore II would not teach Clark all the secrets to his cobra material. Yet the way Clark knows his Cobra material it is still much advanced and better refined than most people in the Moore's Shou Shu system besides the Da Shifus and perhaps some of the Shigungs.
Truth be told!.............and that's no BS!!!
Who are you cobra?
@taught by the best. Mendoza?
Hey Cobra,
I always wondered about the Cobra and why it was placed where it was. It seemed a little weird to learn the Cobra then get your Bears but if Al Moore II developed it then maybe the it affected the order of the beasts. I just happened to see a pic of Martin online with 7 beasts on his belt so I figured he was Dragon. I have also seen McNabey's site, it does look like he has learned some other animal style kung fu but clearly not Shou Shu. Do you know anything about the Sheng Hun guys? The are somewhere in NorCA. I heard the father, Al trained Kenpo with DaShifu Al & Ralph Moore. They seem to have the same 7 beasts as Shou Shu.
The animals aren't taught in that order. It's goes bear, tiger, mongoose, crane, mantis, cobra and then dragon.
that is not me above
I don't know where the Sheng Hun guys studied, and they do teach the same animals, but that doesn't mean it's like Shou Shu. Two tiger styles or two mantis styles can be very different from one another. I've seen many styles that teach mantis, but it looks nothing like Shou Shu. Same with tiger and cobra.
All I was trying to say is that it seemed odd to learn a beast at 1st Brown/Black Prep or even for 1st Black (Cobra)then get your Bear patches. Awhile back it was 1st Black material don't know if it still is. Also the Sheng Hun ppl have the same 7 animals, seems more than coincidence also the fact that there is shared Kenpo history from back in the day. I have seen old vids of Sheng Hun animals and would say they look nothing like Shou Shu.
Bear is the foundation, or the base, that is mastered 1st. Once you get to Black belt, you are pretty much starting all over again as you learn & master Tiger, which is nothing like the Bear that you may have been working on for years.
The Cobra at Black Prep(1st Brown)is NOTHING at all like the pure Cobra required for 6th degree. My interpretation was that there was not very "much" Cobra as far as the techniques go on this card, but just enough to make you realize...can't do it like Bear!
It will allow the student to transition from the linear motion to a more smaller, circular flow of energy. At least that is what the Masters have indicated. As a matter of fact, even the Da Shifus will tell you that the Cobra principles are very, very complex. Fast & explosive stuff..don't blink, you'll miss it.
So ?....you do not learn Cobra until you have mastered Mantis, so WTF are u talking about? BTW- you are so right.....Sheng Hun animals are NOT Moore's Shou Shu.
as i said that man is not me above ? sole my name
I don't care who it was. The point is that you DON'T LEARN PURE COBRA until 5th dot!
You are right! the animals are not the same LOL!!
Ok, here's my personal experience with Shou Shu. First, I have visited and spoken with the instructors at the Stockton, Elk Grove and Stockton Blvd. schools several times. By far, they were the most arrogant, cocky, unprofessional so-called martial artists I've ever met. Moore's reputation in Sacramento sucks. There might be a handfull of students that can use what they are taught, but the vast majority would get creamed in a real fight.
I studied judo for 5 1/2 years and when I asked about the possibility of a fight going to the ground, they just laughed. I was told they teach "anti-grappling" techniques. Ah....Ok. I was told that they do not spar because they believe it's counter-productive. I'd like them to tell that to a trained boxer, kickboxer, Muay Thai boxer, or experienced judo/jujitsu student. How do they expect to be prepared for a fight if all they do is practice with cooperative partners?
As far as the history and lineage, the whole studying in China thing is total B.S. I challenge anyone from Moore's to present concrete proof, but they can't do it. Al Sr. probably never even visited China, and if he got anywhere close to organized crime sydicates like the Wa-Chings or Triad's, he would have disappeared. And what the hell is a Jung Moon??? It just sounds so completely cheesy. Something out of a comic book.
Lastly, I visited the Natomas school several years ago, and spoke to the instructor. Can't remember his name, but he was extremely cocky and had a major case of little man's syndrome. Told me he would teach me how to defend myself against 20 guys. That's the absolute truth. This guy was so lost in reality. When I replied that i could find 20 guys that would love to take that challenge, he immediately backpeddled. Didn't want anything to do with it. I heard he was eventually kicked out of Moore's some time later.
Sorry to be so negative, but this was my experience.
Years ago...1980's I remember the cockyness...I haven't really seen that in recent years. 20 guys intent on whupping you and you are all alone and have no way out...You're going to get a whuppin. Your best bet is to find a way to survive and get the hell out of there. There are tactics you can use but the goal in that case isn't to win but to survive. If you can take 4 or 5 out real fast and mean as hell the others may back off...That's If you can't just flat get away...That's just my opinion btw. Not anything I have been taught in Shou Shu. My black belt is not in Shou Shu so I don't really know what they teach at that level. Just a green in Shou Shu...and that afetr 20+ years away doing other styles. The close in-fighting technique is why I came back to Shou Shu.
Sparring and ground fighting is a regular part of the curriculum. It has to be. So many fights end up on the ground. I HATE ground fighting myself but you gotta train for it. This is what they teach in the Atwater school anyway....I would think it would be the same every where. I do believe that the ground fighting is a recent addition though. I was never taught any of it in the 80's. What I have seen in class is straight Gracie Ju Jitsu type stuff. Rear Naked Choke...Americana etc etc.
Interesting that the Atwater school would have a grappling curriculum now. It seems they finally came around and realized how important it is to be well-rounded. The instructor at the Elk Grove school (Vargas) simply doesn't get it. He even speaks about the grappling topic on his webiste. Just totally blows it off. Clearly he has never sparred against an experienced grappler. Anti-grappling bull crap would never work. He walks around his school with sleeve-arm tattoos looking like some kind of prison gang member thinking he's invicible. I'm not saying he can't take care of himself, but he's just a little illogical.
The instructor at the Natomas school was named Townsend. Man was this guy a space cadet.
Seems I recall similar critique from you elsewhere that has been regurgitated here. You do have a few valid points and in all fairness, I can concur. I will tell you this, I have known that "prison looking gang member" for many,many years. Gangs are a part of his past and he has walked that walk and continues to help others get off that path. He is a good person, & I am sorry you did not get that vibe.
Never have trained with him personally,but was there the day he tested & got his Black, and he has made me a better student & instructor with many years of inspiration and guidance. I know him as a very dedicated, compassionate instructor and martial artist. His students are some of the best in the system.
The tats are absolute pieces of art and reflective of the energy & persona of the man. As far as logic goes....it does not. The man is a stone cold destroyer and working on his 4th degree, which in Shou Shu is quite an accomplishment
When you speak of an experienced grappler, is that someone who has trained and competed with rules in place that protect the (sport) competitor from serious bodily harm or even death? As in cage fighting?
I was assaulted by a guy not too long ago, I just about plucked his eyeball out and then dropped an elbow at the base of his skull as I knee lifted his face when he tried to shoot for my legs in an elevator. The guy was a ranked UFC competitor, shoot fighter, ground guy..... I am not talking about sparring, but survival.
I have a wrestling background and loved the sport
(Greco-Romo, freestyle, catch as catch can) & did some Judo also. Still (after all these years) works great with the Shuai Jao we incorporate with Shou Shu. And admittedly, yes, I hate the ground. You see it is the ground itself, that becomes your worst enemy!
As martial artists, we never "blow off" other arts or styles, we do train & always try to prepare for the unexpected, there IS ALWAYS someone better skilled than oneself.
I do agree you must also have more than just a stand up game if you do end up on your back, or worse, your face!
Taught By The Best –
I’ve actually never posted anywhere else but this Hub. Must be someone else with similar experiences and/or martial arts background.
Over the years I’ve heard many things about Moore’s. Some of it positive, but most was negative. I’m not the type to just believe what I’m told, so I decided to go check things out and speak with the instructors personally. All I’m saying is that I was disappointed in my experience. A lot of the history and lineage didn’t add up, and there was this consistent pervasive attitude with those that I spoke with. I was hoping for more.
I’m sure there are aspects of Shou Shu that work very well. Clearly the foundation is Kenpo with a mixture of some other arts (this is not a bad thing, as Kenpo is very effective). But Al Moore’s claim of studying in China from organized crime is just plain absurd. The fantasy and myth of Shou Shu’s history has taken on a life of its own. Enough is enough. I just wish his son would come out and be completely truthful about the whole thing.
If Mr. Vargas has a gang past and changed his life for the better, I give him much respect. It takes a lot of courage to walk away from that type of life. It was just his attitude that I was put off by. As soon as I asked simple questions (in a respectful manner) about Shou Shu’s history, or what he thinks about the grappling arts, things turned sour. He almost looked angry. Maybe he was just having a bad day, and that happens to all of us. As far as him being a “stone cold destroyer”, have you witnessed him in a violent street fight? If so, who was his opponent(s), and what was the outcome? Again, I’m sure he can take care of himself. He looks muscular and fit, and that plays a huge part in a fight.
As far as grappling goes, it has its place. But it’s only a piece of the puzzle. That said, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen high ranking black belts in various stand up arts swear they would never be taken to the ground, only for that exact situation to happen against just a mid-ranked grappler. I’ve probably seen 30-40 challenge matches between solid students/instructors from different schools, and the vast majority ended up on the ground. Good thing you have background experience with the ground game. Get taken to the ground against someone who knows that game, and they’re in serious trouble.
Ahh….the “art of eye gouging”. Let me say a few things about this. I would highly advise someone to be extremely careful firing off an eye spear, or whatever it’s called. You can be arrested for assault and battery, and lose everything you own in a civil suit. Justifiable means would only be someone who is absolutely sure they fear for their life. Not just a street fight, one-on-one type of thing. Law enforcement will not look kindly to maiming someone when many other options could have been used, especially from a trained martial artist. You say you fought a “ranked UFC competitor and shootfighter” recently in an elevator. I’d like to know who this was exactly? And what was the final outcome of the fight? I happen to know a few people, and I could verify this pretty easy. Not saying you’re making anything up, but I am interested to hear more about it.
Respectfully,
M.S
The Atwater School is the only one I have spent any time at in recent years so I can't speak for the others. It was part of the regular course there. We were not tested on it so perhaps it's just something that the instructor feels passionate about.
I have beem in a few fights..as few as I could possibly mannage! None have gone to the ground thankfuly. I play in a band and the places I play are full of drunks who inevitably want to fight. Being in the band usualy keeps me "off limits" to them. But every now and then someone decides it's cool to mess with one of us or screw with the equipment. I'm 6' tall and close to 300lbs..way too damn fat! BUT it usualy is enough to back them off when reasoning wont work. I've seen more action than I have personaly been involved with...My point though is that in my situation it starts as one on one but doesn't stay there. Going to the ground is a BAD idea. Friends like to join in and if the bouncer is slow off the line you are going to get hurt down there. I have been able to end mine with a few smacks and the intervention of the bouncer almost every time. Thankfully it's a rare occurance. One of these days though it's bound to end up going to the ground where I'll have to see if he can bench 300lbs of pissed off guitar player lol.
I don't really want to hurt them...Just stop them.
Lord help them if they lay a hand on my wife though....
MS- I understand. Shou Shu is not for you. You checked it out it and made an independent decision.
Kenpo and Shou Shu do not resemble each other at all. Similar, for sure as far as teaching protocols go. Kenpo schools served as the business model for many, many distinct martial arts models, and still do to this very day. Very historical, from a an enterprise standpoint.
Let me tell you something about eye gouging....I will do whatever it takes to protect myself and take advantage of the best available target(s) utilizing the weapons I am trained to use. When one fears for his safety or life...any means necessary. Best available target = eyes are no exception!...F#%@K with me and I do what I have to. I exercised "reasonable" force to protect myself. My life was in danger....justifiable self defense, I was attacked & protected myself. I will also not hesitate to drive an attacker's testicles up into his larynx.
You don't need to open up a grand jury investigation regarding the incident I relayed ...the individual who instigated the altercation was arrested,(variety of other reasons) It was the arresting officer who told me the guy was a cage guy, braggart too.
You still make a lot of valid points & I do not disagree with you on those that I agree with as well. Thank you for the respect that you also conveyed in regards to Shifu Vargas. Perhaps you should re-visit him and see if anything has changed since your last meeting. We all have bad days, and we all can learn from each other.
I have seen many of our Black belts in "action" when training in reactions (not demos!). I stick with my stone cold perspective along with the 3 dots on his belt.
I haven't been on this site for quite a long time but sitting here for the last hour trying to read the last 12 months worth of text reminds me why I haven't been on. I received a call and was told someone was making some negative comments about a visit to our school in Elk Grove so I thought I'd check it out.
Mr. MichaelSean, you mentioned that I blew off ground fighting to you personally and on my website. I invite anyone to check our website and view my blogs at www.moores-elkgrove.com I have never disrespected another martial art or self defense system as you referenced. I DO mention the relevance of ground fighting in a street fight as well as my want as a Shou Shu teacher to teach you how to stay on your feet as best as possible. If you do go to the ground, we can address that as well.
You mention me walkinig around my school with full sleeves like i'm invincible... I have been told I have a distinct walk... but let me assure you its not a prison walk nor that I think I'm invincible. I like to consider it confidence. I have a large back ground in public communications and martial arts. Anybody familiar with martial arts will agree you will gain a pep in your step or a certain confidence will exude from you, in your voice, your walk, your whole demeanor. I'm sorry if you take that as arrogance. I didn't start getting tattoos until I was in martial arts, tattoos and martial arts just kind of go hand in hand.. and for the record, I purposely got color tattoos so I they wouldn't be mistaken for prison tattoos. You can't get color in prison. I've never been incarcerated. "Taught by the Best" nailed me pretty good. I grew up in gangs all my life. I became a father and decided it was time to change my life. some years later I learned of Moore's and the positive impact it had on kids and I enrolled my children, within weeks I was in love with it and found my calling. I'd always been good with people and it was a "natural fit" for me. With my back ground in street fighting and the raw-to-the-point self defense Moore's teaches it was easy for me to take to this art.
Now so far your view of me was speculation and 1st impression based on my looks and walk. I can live with that, I get alot of people that are intimidated by me because of the 2 things you mentioned but once they meet me or see me smile, right away the perception disappears.
The problem and main reason I got on here today is your comments on how I treated you when we spoke and you asked about ground fighting and the history of Shou Shu. I own the Elk Grove school, if you walked in or called me with questions, it's in my best interest to answer your questions professionally as a martial artist and instructor. I would never get rude, upset or act arrogant towards any of the above. Why? Do you think your the 1st to ask these type of questions.. MMA is the craze and I expect these questions.. I wouldn't be as successful if I acted that way. I get alot of people asking about ground fighting and such and I try to answer the best way I can.... professionally! In regards to the history, I've never had a problem discussing the history of it as a matter a fact, it's part of my walk through when you come into my school. I give everyone that walks in a tour of the school and talk about who is who on my walls. You mentioned things turned sour, and that I almost looked angry... I call this a lie sir, I've never had a bad conversation with anyone and I don't recall meeting anyone questioning the history of Shou Shu in person. I don't appreciate you saying this about me on an open forum. Maybe you have a personal problem and got on here to bash me.. but you mention me and another name of Townsend.. Townsend hasn't been apart of Moore's in 4 yrs so i'm not exactly sure when your referencing meeting me.
I'm a businessman and professional martial artist. I don't need to prove to anyone that I can fight. Shou Shu and Moore's has clearly proven that over the years on countless occasions. The proof is in the product. I'm here to serve the public one of the best self-defense systems ever developed. I handle myself very well, i'm professional, patient and courteous... its what martial arts has taught me. My public speaking background assists me in meeting people and my teaching ability in martial arts gets them to sign up. I have never in 5 yrs had someone come in and have a bad conversation with me. I hope everyone the best in their training.
You left out one of the animals: Monkey. Sho Shu is my foundation art. I have since, because of location, continued in Danzan Ryu & Aiki. Thanks for the Web-Page it was fun.
Monkey was left out on purpose, iirc, because theyre not a balanced animal, and I don't mean monkeys have no balance.
Thank you for the response. I have learned to blend the soft and hard styles of Sho Shu and DanZan Ryu together to form my own style. Sho Shu is still my beginning and I can not put it aside. Sho Shu is who I am. Hard and Soft blended to be one. Be safe and have fun. Crockett
curious martial artist 3 years ago
If Al Moore Sr. passed away in 2002, how did you earn the rest of the degrees?